A QUESTION ASKED BY JIM ALLISTER AT THE ASSEMBLY TODAY ABOUT THE SPOTLIGHT PROGRAM CONCERNING EXPENSES -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question for Urgent Oral Answer BBC Spotlight: Assembly Expenses Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Mr Jim Allister has given notice of a question for urgent oral answer to the Assembly Commission. I remind Members that, if they wish to ask a supplementary question, they should rise continually in their places. The Member who tabled the question will be called automatically to ask a supplementary question. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: I call Mrs Judith Cochrane to answer on behalf of the Assembly Commission. Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Member for his question. The Assembly Commission takes its responsibilities for the proper management of public funds seriously. Since the restoration of the Assembly in 2007, the Commission has introduced a wide range of measures to improve the framework of financial support for Members and to be transparent about the use of public funds. Those measures include the full publication of Members expenses for office cost expenditure (OCE) claims going back to 2003-04, which is essentially for the past 10 years; placing restrictions on the employment of family members; introducing a requirement for evaluation to be carried out by independent valuers of all constituency offices, unlike other parliamentary institutions where a valuation is only required in certain circumstances; bringing forward legislation to establish the independent financial review panel to determine the level of expenditure that can be claimed to reimburse Members for costs incurred in carrying out their Assembly duties; and an annual audit, undertaken to the highest professional auditing standards, in line with the public-sector internal audit standards, to cover the expenditure claims made by a random selection of 25% of all Members, in addition to the audit of the Commissions expenditure by the Comptroller and Auditor General every year. A number of the issues raised in the programme have already been addressed through the measures that I have outlined, and, in addition, the Assemblys accounting officer had referred two matters to the PSNI in advance of the broadcast of the programmes. Furthermore, the Commission has already met to consider some of the issues that were raised and has tasked officials with bringing a paper of options to consider models for administering expenses. The Commission is due to meet again at the conclusion of this item of plenary business. The Assembly Commissions commitment to good governance and the prudent use of public money is steadfast, and appropriate action will be taken to address any substantive issues. The Commission will seek to continually strengthen and improve its systems and processes. Mr Allister: If the Assembly Commission has been doing its job, why did it take a television programme to expose the near-industrial-scale abuse of expenses going on, it seems, right under the Commissions nose; and, if the PSNI comes asking questions about bogus cultural societies or a bogus research company, can the Member assure us that, this time, they will not be told, Move on, nothing to see here and, this time, the Assembly Commission will open its books entirely in a totally transparent way? Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Member for his question. I understand that he has already written to the Assemblys accounting officer to address a couple of those matters. Assembly officials met with the PSNI, back in 2009, regarding a complaint that had been made. At that meeting, they advised the PSNI that no evidence of activities of a criminal nature had been brought to their attention, nor had any evidence of criminality been identified through the annual programme of audits that is carried out by the Assembly. Of course, if there is any issue that the PSNI comes forward with, the Commission will review all aspects of the allegations and will indeed liaise with, and give whatever assistance it can to, the PSNI. Mr Ross: The Member has outlined the rule changes that have taken place over the last number of years, and I am sure that she would agree that we have a system where, if there has been a misuse or an allegation of a misuse of Assembly allowances, that can be investigated, first, by the independent Commissioner for Standards and, in more serious cases, perhaps by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. However, given the spotlight that is on Members allowances, does she believe that it is now time for the Commission to give consideration to a new independent body, not only to determine allowances and salaries for Members but to administer allowances to Members? That body would sit outside the existing structures. Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Member for his question. As I outlined, the Commission has requested a paper to be brought forward with some options. We will meet again straight after this meeting to review the content of the broadcasts. We will assess whether there were any substantive issues that have not already been resolved through the current process and whether further improvements could be made to the current administration of Members claims in the existing Independent Financial Review Panel (IFRP) determination. We will consider the various models that are available for an overall system to see whether that needs to be changed or alternatively identify any other issues that we might want the IFRP to consider as part of its next determination. Mr Maskey: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Given some of the allegations, can the Commission member advise the House of how the Commission intends to deal with the question of unregulated family employment, of which there seems to have been quite a number of incidents, and how that squares with fair employment legislation? Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Member for his question. I stated some of the measures that have been put in place to restrict the employment of family members to one per Member, although those who were already in post obviously were not sacked as a result of that determination. This is something that the Commission can look at going forward as a means to tighten up the issue. Mr Eastwood: The Member has hinted at change to come. She sort of said that on the back of Mr Rosss question. Will there be any independent investigation or inquiry into the allegations that were made in the programme? Mrs Cochrane: As I said, the Commission will look into the issues in more detail that were raised. If there are any substantive issues that have not been resolved or are not in the process of being resolved, an independent investigation may be the way forward. That is something that the Commission will discuss. It may be by means of new powers being given to the IFRP or a completely separate body being set up to look at this. Mr Swann: What reassurances can the commissioner give this House that neither the Commission nor any single member of it will hamper the investigation by the PSNI or any other body? Mrs Cochrane: At the end of the day, we as Commission members form part of a corporate body. Therefore, we are there not to act on behalf of our parties but in the best interests. All of what we want to look at will be to ensure the full openness and transparency of all Members claims. Mr Lunn: Again, on the back of Mr Rosss question, in which he seemed to suggest that there could be a brand new body to oversee these matters, the fact is that we have the Independent Financial Review Panel. The problem is that it is a bit short on teeth. Does the Member agree that perhaps an expansion of that panels powers to include investigative powers and the ability to issue more than one determination in a mandate might be the way forward? Mrs Cochrane: The current system allows assurance of all expenses undergoing a review. At the moment, all original invoices etc have to be put in place along with an assessment of their admissibility. I said in my answers to two other Members that, yes, the Commission will meet after this meeting. I understand that we already have a number of items in a paper to consider a way forward. Yes, perhaps one way to do that would be to strengthen the role of the current panel. Mr Campbell: In supporting the concept of the creation of a body in the style of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA), does the Commission member agree that those issues that have not been dealt with yet and were mentioned in the programme need to be rooted out for the future, but that it would strengthen everyones hand if a publicly funded body like the BBC were equally open and transparent about the wages, salaries, overheads and expenses that it incurs as the rest of us are? Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Member for his points. I am not going to comment on the BBC at the moment. Some Members have stated that wrong claims were made against them. The Commission will certainly assess the entirety of those claims. If it is clear that some of them were not factual in nature, I imagine that the Commission will want to raise that with the BBC. Mr Ó Muilleoir: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Commission set out clearly the rules relating to the rental of constituency offices and the requirements placed on elected Members so that the public can get a full understanding of the precise nature of those rules? Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Member for his question. There are clear rules in place and the Commission takes the view that the regime is clear. They are set out in paragraph 9 sub-paragraphs (11) to (14) of the IFRP determination. A Member cannot claim for the cost of office rentals if the office is leased from a family member or from a person with whom the Member has a connection under certain sections of the Companies Act 2006, or a person from whom the Member, or his or her family members, derives a financial benefit. The Commission may ask the panel to consider whether further measures need to be adopted to ensure a more open and transparent approach is available to landlords of constituency offices. The IFRP rule on the maximum amount a Member can reclaim for office rent is also set out in the IFRP determination. Mr Agnew: I hold open competition, including interviews, for all my roles with all my staff. I do that in spite of the rules rather than because of them. Is the Commission supportive of introducing at least some basic rules to reflect the fact that those roles are paid out of the public purse and also to ensure that Members get the best quality staff? Mrs Cochrane: The employment of individual staff from OCE is a matter for individual Members. Members often work in different ways. Some people focus more on constituency and casework issues as opposed to research, so different Members will have different requirements. Speaking in a personal capacity, my hiring of staff is done in an open and transparent manner as well. It is certainly something that the Commission will discuss, as will whether there are best practice guidelines that can be put in place. Mr McNarry: I ask the Commission to ensure that there will be no similarities to the investigation into the Northern Ireland Events Company, which was about a £1 million loss that cost over £1 million to investigate. After seven years, there has been no report and no sight of any PSNI involvement. Will the Commission give assurance to the Assembly that it will not be hooked on delays awaiting a report that could take longer than this Assemblys remit? Will she give an answer as to the timescale in which this Assembly will be presented with a factual and concluding report? Mrs Cochrane: I am not entirely clear about the relationship he made between that investigation and what we are talking about here. The Commission will review all aspects of the allegations that have been made. If it transpires that there are matters that have to go to the PSNI, HMRC, the Charities Commission or whoever, that will be the case. I cannot speak for those bodies to say exactly how long it will take for them to finish their investigation. Mr Irwin: I was one of the Members highlighted in the programme; it was stated that I bought an office desk at £1,725. Of course, a picture of that desk was put in the programme. I totally refute the allegation made in the Spotlight programme. Indeed, this was a complete built-in unit with an office counter, cupboards and an office desk all in one. I am quite happy for the Assembly Commission to look at my desk. I am quite happy for the BBC Spotlight programme to take a picture and put it in a programme to clear the air on that one. What can be done to protect Members who are falsely accused? Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Member for his question. As I have stated, while I am not keen to comment on parts of the programme in relation to individual Members, the Commission will review all aspects of it in a measured way. If it feels that there are issues of factual inaccuracy that require clarification with the BBC, the Commission will consider whether to do that and in what manner. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: That concludes this item of business. I thank Ms Cochrane for taking the questions from Members. 3.45 pm
Posted on: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 19:12:30 +0000
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