A discussion sparked by the blog entry, themiddleflipper.blogspot/2013/11/anthropomorphism-its-not-4-letter-word.html: Robert Jay Russell Science has been moving beyond this for some years now. As it happens, Darwin attributed human emotions to evolved traits from ancestral species. I have personally worked for years on this, especially on the utterly indefensible concept that theres a division between animals and humans. No. Were ALL animals. I am particularly struck with bonding, love, and empathy exhibited by so very many species. Beej Biberstein III Lol I find it funny that the author is doing exactly what her training told her not to do even just describing anthropomorphism. Its a finer detail (*assuming* we know what the animals are feeling based on their body language) that shes confused about. Projection and projective identification. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification This is the most common occurrence between humans and the animals they grow attached to. Give me an account of animals discussing in expanding detail (even in their own language) of fantasy animals that behave in a way they have never experienced before and responding to stimuli that doesnt even exist in this universe and I will believe we are ALL strictly animals. Humans are animals with an additional characteristic. We can willfully defy our emotions and behave irrationally or give the opposite response our emotions dictate by choice. Try it sometime. Btw, none of this means I hate animals. Lyssa MacMillan I see animals every day that do something they clearly dont want to do, for reasons very similar to those a human would give. Theres some really good research and philosophy out there concerning just how instinctive our choices really are. I think the point trying to be made is that non-human animals are emotionally complex and human animals are just that. Robert Jay Russell Try this one. I captured some juvenile Norway (Brown) rats, housed them in an aquarium. At night, as the rats were out in the tank digging and scavenging for food, I approached. It startled them. One ran into the glass wall and was stunned and clearly too disoriented to move. The rest had taken shelter in the nest box. Several stuck their heads in the entrance and watched their colleague struggling and staggering. Suddenly, one of them, timidly but surely exited the box, approached his injured colleague while nervously keeping an eye trained on me and began tugging him back to the entrance of the nest box. Successful they all piled on one another and waited for me to leave. It was an act of bravery and displayed empathy and clearly, altruism. All the rats were recently wild caught and fearful of humans. One displayed valor. I named the heroic rat Stuart. He and his colleagues were released in the woods. We are ALL evolved animals -- humans are aggressive, short-sighted, highly destructive apes. Some animals are more worthy of praise than others. Robert Jay Russells photo. Beej Biberstein III Lol Beej Biberstein III Still no fiction-writing rats. Robert Jay Russell HaHaHa… yes, and none who lie so effusively that hundreds of thousands of their fellow creatures die in Iraq, either! No mass murderers, except amongst human animals. But, we are all animals, as you would note when consulting a doctor with a disease you share with our other primate kin. Saying,But no. Cannot be. I am a human, far above animals. I cannot have HIV (STLV)! I cannot have cancer. I cannot contract such things. I do not share oncogenes with them. Beej Biberstein III Mass murderers, liars? Then there is some additional characteristic in humans. Robert Jay Russell All species differ. That doesnt disqualify them as evolved animals like us. Robert Jay Russell Hell, we share many traits with Australopithecines and Neandertals, both of which are different (ancestral) taxa. Beej Biberstein III So evolution succeeded in evolving past its own evolutionary rule? Please, continue proving my points. hahaha Robert Jay Russell You are weird. No, nothing evolved passed whatever you think you just said. Robert Jay Russell Basically, you need to learn some biology and science before you try to make some points. Beej Biberstein III Is there an evolutionary critical mass? Because based on current trends we will be it. Successfully destroying the known animal kingdom and heading right for self-extinction. I think you need to learn some logic before you try to debate. Robert Jay Russell I taught philosophy at the University of Vienna. But I digress. You toss around utterly nonsensical constructions like evolutionary critical mass and you think wrongly youve made some point. There are ecological limits, known as limits of carrying capacity. These species can and do exceed. None but us has ever endangered ecosystem and even the biosphere. Beej Biberstein III Again, you just agreed with me. And answered my question. Thanks. Kudos for teaching philosophy. Bullcrap has more tasteful qualities than modern philosophy. Robert Jay Russell No I did not. You are too stupid to see that. Because we can do harm that other species do not do does not make us a non animal. Rattlesnakes can kill you with a bite; birds cannot. Botha are animals. Frankly, you sound as literate a Sarah Palin, so good night. Beej Biberstein III So were not the only mass murderers now? Can you give me an example of effusive liars in the animal kingdom as well? You are beginning to contradict yourself. Sleep is probably a good idea.
Posted on: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 06:11:19 +0000
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