BIBLE DEBATE....... ( would like to make it clear the person titled as preacher in this IS NOT Steve Hepperly. He is on my friends list and I didnt want people to think it is him. I have no idea his thoughts on this.) I also would like to be clear I encourage baptism, and not against them. I just didnt agree with a statement made. I think good points by all. Something different to read. I removed names of people involved. Person 1: Good article explaining the Osteen religion vs. Christianity. Only thing forgotten was that baptism is essential to Christian salvation. Original Article: Why People are Being so Mean to Victoria Osteen The following clip of Victoria Osteen, wife and co-pastor to Joel Osteen, has been making the rounds on my Facebook feed. In the clip Mrs. Osteen encourages the 40,000 some odd congregants of Lakewood church to “do good for your own self”. But, she adds, to do good not just for God’s sake, but “do good because God wants you to be happy.” The clip finishes with a shot of Bill Cosby saying, “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard in my life!” from the Cosby Show. Person 2:MARK 16:15-16 Person 2:ACTS 2:38 Me: I am not a big Osteen fan. I have seen him misrepresent scripture to put a positive where it did not belong. I have always thought of him more of a Zig Ziggler kind of guy. And I am all for baptisms, Jesus himself did it, and he is our example. But no where does it say baptism is essential to Christian salvation. You should study those verses a little closer before making such a claim. Believe and faith are what saves you. The thief that was on the cross next to Jesus was never baptized and found faith only in the final minutes of his life. Yet Jesus declared to him he would be with him that day in paradise. There are many other examples as well. The reason now to be baptized is to publicly declare your faith, many do that in other ways every day. Faith in our Father and Jesus Christ is what is essential. His whole word must be studied to understand, not just verses. I am sure you are both fine Christians, and only wanted to call this out, so as not to misrepresent. May GOD Bless you both. Good day Person 3: Jesus said in John 14:15 that If you love me, keep my commands. Then in Mark 16:15 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Person 3:It does not say believe and you are saved and then get baptized as a show of faith. Believe AND is baptized, Mike. Likewise, in John 3:5 Jesus talks about being born of water and the spirit.Also see, Acts 22:16 Ananias tells Saul (Paul) to get up, be baptized and wash away your sins. I am not sure how you arrive at your position that you must only have faith. You must be baptized for the remission of sins. Me: Whats it say about whoever believes in me and is not baptized. It doesnt was my point if you were sending that to me Tony. Person 3: I was sending it to you. The second half of Jesus statement is to clarify that you must first believe. If you do not believe you probably wont get baptized. Likewise, if you dont believe and get baptized you are just getting wet. Read about Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 6. Philip told him the good news about Jesus and the eunuch was baptized immediately. Why was that? Me: So you believe if someone has total faith in Jesus Christ and they are not dipped in water that they will not be saved? Me: Act 6 Tony??? I see nothing that says one way or the other. You may want to check that. Person 3: Acts 8. My mistake. Fat fingers on the iPhone Person 3: I believe what Jesus said in John 3:5 and Mark 16:15. I also believe what Peter said in Acts 2:38. I believe that baptism washed away Sauls sins (Acts 22:16)I believe that the bible clearly sets forth that you must believe AND be baptized. I also believe that satan blinds many people from the truth, leading then to disobey clear instructions. Your eternal soul is at stake. I pray that you study the bible more to discern the truth. Person 1: For that matter, even the devil believes. Will the devil be saved? Person 4: What about the thief on the cross. Jesus said today you shall be with me in paradise. The thief was never baptized. I believe with all my heart he is with Jesus. Me: The devil has no faith and believes because he sees them personally. Everyone thinks he is in hell, when at this time hell doesnt even exist. The devil, believe it or not is in heaven. Held in chains by the Archangel Michael and will be cast to earth upon the sixth trump. Me: What about people that come to Jesus while dying in the hospital, and confess his name and pray to be saved but are unable to get baptized, you really believe they are not saved either. Or people that have been baptized by false preachers or by people who are not true Christians, then you believe they are not saved either? Person 2: Person 1 is right - in the book of JAMES it talks about the devil believes. Me: Being baptized was crucial before Jesus died on the cross. Once he did this all of our sins were washed away in his blood. The reason for a baptism now is to publicly claim you believe that Jesus is the son of GOD and died on the cross and then had risen from the dead. If you think that baptizing is necessary to wash away your sins then I hope you haven’t sinned since you have been baptized. And everyone that has been baptized that has sinned afterwards is not saved. Do you see the logic here. I not only study the Bible but study the original languages of the Bible. I am very familiar with the word of GOD. I have a Bible Study page I have started that explains his word not the word of man if you would like to follow it. Wingos Understanding of His Word Preacher: Keep studying Mike Me: I will, I think everyone needs to. And I suggest studying with an open mind, and not being closed minded because of what you have been taught by generations of man. I am not trying to belittle anyone at all. The Bible tells me if I know and understand what others do not it is my responsibility to teach what I know. Preacher: And I recommend knowing what you teach. We who are teachers will be judged accordingly. Me: As do I. Or would you like to judge me now? Preacher: You dont have to answer to me. I assumed you knew that! Me: I do, I wasnt sure if you did or not. Preacher: If you walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Me: I agree. And this was my point in the beginning. Was it not? Preacher: No. Your point In the beginning was that one need not be baptized. Tony Turner did an excellent job of teaching you your error. Goodbye and keep studying. Me: As a teacher of the word you are not to run away. As you said we will be held accountable for what we teach. If there is even a chance you are teaching incorrectly, do you not owe it to your followers to even explore the possibility. I do. And I will keep studying to make sure I am teaching correctly. However I believe you will not. Do you feel as if that is right? Preacher: I cant help how you feel. Are you judging me? I study daily. Me: I judge no one. I take it you are a preacher maybe. I am asking for your honest opinion, is this following statement true. And if not why? .......Being baptized was crucial before Jesus died on the cross. Once he did this all of our sins were washed away in his blood. The reason for a baptism now is to publicly claim you believe that Jesus is the son of GOD and died on the cross and then had risen from the dead. If you think that baptizing is necessary to wash away your sins then I hope you haven’t sinned since you have been baptized. And everyone that has been baptized that has sinned afterwards is not saved. Do you see the logic here. Person 2:Mike - I would recommend that you study how folks became Christians when the church started. I would start by reading the book of Acts. Folks do not become Christians by belief only on just prayer. Look at Saul/Paul he was told to STOP PRAYING and arise and WASH AWAY HIS SINS. Please study more - and I think you will do as Saul/Paul, and the people on the day of Pentecost did Acts2/38 - be baptized by forgiveness of sins. Think about it....please. I too important to I think it. Preacher: I do not see logic. Where does the Bible teach that baptism was crucial before the cross? Why did Jesus command baptism after the cross? The quote from I John answers why you need not be baptized over and over. Me: So you are saying my last statement is not true? Is this correct? ???? Me: Because before the cross we didnt have his blood to wash away our sins, therefore Baptism was crucial to be cleansed of our sins and make us pure once more. After the cross his blood cleansed us all that whoever shall believe in him. He commanded baptism to publicly show our faith in him and that we believe in him and that he is the son of GOD. So others would follow and were not ashamed to do so. ???? Me: Once again for the third time, does anyone want to tell me this is not true? ???? Me: Why is it I answer your questions, but no one will answer mine? Does anyone on this entire page want to say my statement is not true??? ???? Person 2: Yes I am telling you it is not true, but this has taken an unfortunate turn. If you want to study more we can find a forum more conducive than Facebook. FB is not the best way to study together. Me: Anyone else agree with Tony that my statement is not true? Preacher?? And why Tony, do say this has taken an unfortunate turn? I think it is an excellent way to study together, everything is documented. Makes it hard for anyone to waver in their statements. And gives us references to go back and check out in our own time. I see many benefits to studying on facebook. Regardless of the final outcome, I am sure GOD is happy to see us all discussing his word. I think all of you are very fine people and appreciate your time. And may GOD bless us all. New Guy:I still havent seen anyone address the question about the thief on the cross. Mike Wingo its funny how anytime you prove them wrong they refuse to address your questions. So...does anyone have an answer for this? Person 2: New guy which thief - there were two? Me: The one Jesus said would be in paradise with him that day. New Guy: Are you serious Person 2? I simply made a statement. I refuse to get into arguments and will no longer even entertain discussions about Scripture with people like you and Person 1 who insist on twisting Gods Word to fit what you want it to say. Im still waiting on a question to be a answered on a post from a few weeks ago. I dont expect an answer. Thats why I refuse to discuss any further. Person 2: Okay - Simple - A WILL or Testament does not go into effect UNTIL the maker of the WILL or TESTAMENT dies. EASY QUESTION Me: And if you believe I am wrong Mark, then you believe everyone that finds salvation on their death bed and can not be baptized does not get saved at all. Or children that die before able to be baptized are not saved either. Mark I think you answer questions with emotion, not truth. Person 2: Any other questions? I love an open discussion. Person 2: Okay - there are the LOST (ones that have never obeyed the Gospel) The SAVED (the ones that have obeyed the Gospel) and the SAFE the ones - such as children that do not yet have understanding of sin. Person 2: So - if you havent done what is in the Bible you will be lost. Me: Person 2 your answer was written in haste, look at all the capital letters you used. There is no reason to be upset. Open your mind and consider the possibility you may not know as much as you think you do. There is no shame in that. There is shame however in getting upset when all everyone wants to do is understand the word of GOD. Person 2: It was meant to be in cap for a point = not anger. Person 2: Not upset at all. Person 2: You capitalized God. I assume for a point and not anger either. Me: I always Capitalize GOD as a manner of the highest respect. Person 2: I believe what the Bible says - there is no need to change to mans way. That has been tried many times in OT and NT (and it didnt work out too well). Me: New guy I would appreciate your thoughts on my Bible study page if and when you have time. It is Wingos Understanding of His Word. Person 2: Mike I would love to sit down with you to study. ( I left at this point nobody had said anything for quite sometime ) Person 2: Mark 16/16 Person 2: ....and to answer your question directly - if someone has not been dipped in water (your words) yes they will be lost and also they must be baptized to the correct reason (Acts 2.38). I think the plan of salvation is simple and easy to comply with - and then live faithfully until death, or until Jesus returns to get us. Person 2: Also we dont know if the thief was baptized or not. Bible doesnt record a baptism - but Johns baptism was available. Person 2: New guy I never received any question form you - sorry New Guy 2: Baptism of the heart is required for eternal life. God is not interested in what you think about others or what others think about you. Public dipping is not a requirement for eternal life, nor will it insure eternal life. Person 2: Mark 16:16 is still there Preacher: You havent proven anything with scripture. Ken, do you have a scripture for baptism of the heart? The Ethiopian was baptized in water. Did Philip teach him wrong? New Guy 2: God wants your undivided love and devotion. Words spoken to impress others are meaningless, same goes for acts in the flesh. God knows our hearts and will judge us accordingly. Nothing wrong with baptism, but that alone gets you nowhere. Preacher: Scripture? ( Preacher wants to play again after he knew I had left, I had even called him out and he set quite until I was gone) New Guy 2: The interpretation of baptism is the issue, not specific scripture which includes baptism. Mark 16:16 is an example. The operative word is believeth. You may be baptized and still be damned. Preacher: So your logic is to go with what you determine as operative words and disregard clear scriptural teaching? Numerous conversions in Acts didnt use this logic. Saul had fasted 3 day Preacher: Sorry, Saul fasted 3 days yet he was baptized before he ate. Obedience to scripture and especially the teachings of Jesus is always (eternally) the issue. Preacher: I am now out of this debate. By the way, this is ____ ______and I am not a preacher. Me: ( next day ) ____ I was not ever trying to debate anyone, I thought maybe we all had something to teach each other. You called yourself a teacher, didnt mean to title you. Hope you have a great day.
Posted on: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 07:45:15 +0000
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