First blood to the No campaign: Salmond flounders in explosive TV debate as Darling tears into his plans for Scottish independence - but millions FAIL to see it after STV website crashes First Minister and ex-Chancellor took part in live two-hour debate on STV Salmond under pressure over currency an independent Scotland would use On the ropes, First Minister talks about risk of alien attacks and pandas STV website crashes as millions worldwide try to watch debate online Snap exit poll after debate ended says 56% of viewers thought Darling won Voters to decide Scotlands fate in historic referendum on September 18 New IpsosMORI poll puts No campaign on 54% but Yes campaign on 40% Up to half a million people are still undecided with just weeks to go No campaign has received £2.6million, ahead of £1.5million for Yes camp Cameron, Clegg and Miliband sign joint declaration promising tax powers By MATT CHORLEY, MAILONLINE POLITICAL EDITOR PUBLISHED: 19:17, 5 August 2014 | UPDATED: 08:08, 6 August 2014 185 shares 801 View comments Alex Salmond took a pounding last night as he came under pressure to explain how his dream of independence would work in practice. The First Minister was defeated in the first TV debate of the referendum campaign, floundering when questioned about a future currency and labelled snide by audience members. Better Together leader Alistair Darling shed his reputation for being dull to go on the attack, branding plans to keep the pound stupidity on stilts and accusing the Yes campaign of being based on guess work, blind faith and crossed fingers. But millions of people trying to watch the historic head-to-head were dismayed after the STV website crashed under the intense demand from viewers worldwide. Scroll down for video +11 +11 Former Chancellor Alistair Darling (right) had First Minister Alex Salmond on the ropes over what currency and independent Scotland would use, dismissing the idea of keeping the pound as stupidity on stilts +11 The two men repeatedly clashed over whether Scotland would be better remaining in the UK or becoming an independent country In the early skirmishes, Mr Salmond repeatedly complained that independence was the only way to prevent a future Tory government while Mr Darling insisted Scotland was stronger as part of the UK. As the political temperature rose, Mr Darling - the leader of the cross-party Better Together campaign - accused Mr Salmond of scrabbling around, claiming the First Minister has lots of good lines but no answers. Voters in Scotland will make their big decision on independence in the historic referendum on September 18. Tonights debate took place in front of an audience of 350 at the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland in Glasgow. A snap exit poll by ICM of more than 500 viewers after the STV debate found that 56 per cent believed Mr Darling won, with just 44 per cent backing the SNP leader. More... Party leaders agree to let Scots set more of their own taxes: Move is attempt to rubbish Salmonds claims Westminster will not offer more powers following a no vote Alex Salmond prepares for must-win TV debate on independence as Alistair Darling is urged to keep it boring Something wrong, Alex? Moment Scotlands First Minister is mocked by a fan waving an England flag behind his back at the Commonwealth Games The No campaign has been consistently ahead in the opinion polls, despite months of intense debate, impassioned pleas and trading of facts and figures. One of the biggest threats to the Yes campaign has been growing doubts about the currency an independent Scotland would use. After ditching the idea of adopting the euro, the SNP has claimed it would enter a currency union with the UK and continue to use the pound. But the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems have all made clear they would block a deal, whoever wins the next general election. Salmond and Darling debate Scottish Independence +11 Some 350 people were chosen to be in the audience at the Royal Conservatoire in Glasgow, with balance between those for and against independence +11 The debate swung between detailed points and aggressive personal attacks between the two men AUDIENCE ROUNDS ON SNIDE SALMOND FOR BEING NOT NICE Some audience members rounded on Alex Salmond for his personal attacks and petty point-scoring. A businessman said he had attended to find out what the impact of independence would be on industry. I am disappointed with you, the man told Mr Salmond. As a politician of some note, some of your remarks have been snide and not very nice, coming from the leader of the Scottish Parliament. If this is what we are going to have in independent Scotland, then obviously we are in for trouble. Mr Salmond came under intense pressure about how he would continue to use the pound, faltering repeatedly about whether he has a back-up plan. The First Minister insisted: We will keep the pound, it is our pound as well as Englands pound. This is Scotlands pounds. It doesnt belong to George Osborne, it doesnt belong to you. It has been built up by Scotland for a long time. But Mr Darling dismissed the idea of a currency union as stupidity on stilts. He added: Any eight-year-old can tell you the flag of a country, the capital of a country and its currency. I presume the flag is the Saltire, I assume our capital will still be Edinburgh, but you cant tell us what currency we will have. What is an eight-year-old going to make of that? Mounting a sustained attack on Mr Salmond, he went on: That leaves us, if you dont get a currency union, which you have said in the past you would contemplate - that is using the pound sterling like Panama or Ecuador uses the dollar. That would be ruinous for our financial services industry, is that your fall back position, is that plan B? He also had Mr Salmond on the ropes over his infamous claim to have legal advice about joining the European Union which he later admitted did not exist. Winding up his arguments at the end of the two-hour clash, Mr Darling declared: Far too much of this debate has been characterised by guesswork, blind faith and crossed fingers. +11 Mr Salmond complained that policies such as the bedroom tax were being imposed by Westminster +11 Mr Darling said those calling for independence had no plan B for how to run Scotlands economy As the debate got underway, the STV website crashed as millions of people around the world tried to log on to watch the debate +11 The latest IpsosMORI survey released as the debate began suggests the race is narrowing slightly, but the No campaign still has a 14 point lead KEY QUOTES OF DEBATE SO FAR INDEPENDENCE Salmond: No one will do a better job of running Scotland than the people who live and work in this country. Darling: There are times that for the love of our family and the love of our country its sometimes best to say No, not because we cant, but simply because its not the best thing to do. I want to use the strength of the UK to make Scotland stronger. CURRENCY Salmond: We will keep the pound because it is our pound as well as Englands pound. It is logical and desirable to keep the pound. Darling: A currency union is stupidity on stilts. If you leave the United Kingdom you leave the pound. What is your plan B if you dont get a currency union, this is most important. GOVERNMENT Salmond: The Tory Party have one MP, there are more pandas in the zoo in Edinburgh than Tory MPs in Scotland. But we still get a Tory Government. That is what is undemocratic about the status quo. Darling: Its a nice line but its not an answer. BANKS Salmond: I dont think talking about the financial markets is your strongest suit Alistair, given what happened to the financial markets when you were Chancellor of the Exchequer. Darling: If Scotland had been independent at the time it would have been in exactly the same position as Ireland and Iceland. Both of those countries are bust now because it couldnt deal with the banking crisis. EUROPE Salmond: Isnt the real uncertainty that you have a government which is having an in-out referendum on Europe and youre in bed with people who will say that theyre going to vote to leave the European Union. Isnt that the risk for Scotland? Darling: The big point here is that Ive always said yes well get back in, the question is the terms and conditions on which well get back in and how long it takes to get back in. Its quite clear that Scotland would have to reapply, its not at all clear what the term and conditions are that wed have to meet. TAX AND SPENDING Salmond: In each one of the last 33 years, Scotland has paid more in tax per person than the average of the UK. Over the last five years we have £8 billion more into the treasury than we have had out of it, in relative terms. that is £1,500 a head for every man, woman and child in Scotland. Darling: Money has flowed both ways over the last 30 years, but in the last 22 years Scotland has spent more than it has put in, so we have benefited from being part of the United Kingdom. We have higher public spending here per head than they do in the rest of the United Kingdom. At the start of the debate, Mr Salmond urged voters in Scotland to seize the opportunity of independence with both hands. He said: It should be a shared position tonight that Scotland could be a successful independent country. My case this evening is this: no one, no one will do a better job of running Scotland than the people who live and work in this country. On September 18 we have the opportunity of a lifetime. We should seize that opportunity with both hands. But Mr Darling warned the future of our country was now at stake. He added: There are times that for the love of our family and the love of our country its sometimes best to say No, not because we cant, but simply because its not the best thing to do. In six weeks time we will make the biggest decision weve ever made here in Scotland and remember this, if we decide to leave there is no going back, there is no second chance. So lets say with confidence, lets say with pride, lets say with optimism No thanks to the risks of independence, and lets say lets have the best of both worlds not just for us but for generations to come. A new IpsosMori poll released at 8pm suggested the race is tightening, but the Yes vote still trails by about 14 points. Of those absolutely certain to vote, 54 per cent said they intend to vote No, unchanged since June, 40 per cent would vote Yes, up four percentage points, while six per cent are undecided, down by four points. When undecided voters were removed from the figures, 58 per cent of those certain to vote would vote No, down by two points, while 42 per cent would vote Yes, up by two points. However, the poll showed a large gender gap in how men and women intended to vote. Some 47 per cent of men said they were planning to vote Yes, but only 33 per cent of women planned to back Mr Salmonds team hope the success of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow would bolster nationalist sentiment, with a strong showing in medal table. The debate over Scotland going it alone has gone global, with celebrities including Shrek star Mike Myers, singer David Bowie and even Kermit from The Muppets issuing please to preserve the UK. Mr Salmond initially refused to take part in the debate, insisting he would only face Prime Minister David Cameron. But Mr Cameron insisted it was right that the issues were thrashed out between Scots, and Mr Darling is the leader of the Better Together campaign. Miss Howell, who runs a psychological coaching firm in Nottingham, has previously advised former footballer Stan Collymore. She has banned the SNP from using Braveheart words, such as freedom. Instead she has urged Mr Salmond and his SNP MSPs to use words such as exciting, historic and transformational. Mr Darling, meanwhile, had to build on his reputation as a number-crunching accountant, and display some passion about why Scotland should remain in the UK. Time and again the debate returned to money, and how the figures for independence would add up. Mr Darling insisted the country was better off in the UK. Money has flowed both ways over the last 30 years, but in the last 22 years Scotland has spent more than it has put in, so we have benefited from being part of the United Kingdom, he said. We have higher public spending here per head than they do in the rest of the United Kingdom. As someone who is fiercely proud of being Scottish I am not unhappy that from time to time we tackle problems in Liverpool, in Manchester, in Norwich, in Newcastle, because as well as being Scottish I regard myself as being part of something bigger. But we benefit from being part of the UK at the moment. Mr Salmond, however, insisted: In each one of the last 33 years, Scotland has paid more in tax per person than the average of the UK. Over the last five years we have £8 billion more into the treasury than we have had out of it, in relative terms. that is £1,500 a head for every man, woman and child in Scotland. +11 New figures from the Electoral Commission show the No campaign has been given £2.7million, compared to just £1.5million given to the Yes campaign HOW THE STARS ARE LINING UP FOR INDEPENDENCE Sir Sean Connery Actor Sir Sean Connery: The people of Scotland are the best guardians of their own future. Actor Alan Cumming : The world is waiting for us. I know Scotland is ready. The Proclaimers: Scotland has huge national resources, with its people, its wave power – all the possibilities that this country has...we need to take charge of our own affairs Comedian Kevin Bridges: If the referendum was tomorrow, Id probably vote yes. AGAINST INDEPENDENCE David Bowie David Bowie: Scotland, stay with us. Singer Rod Stewart : Id hate to see the Union broken after all these years — and I dont think it will happen. Cyclist Sir Chris Hoy said: Ive said numerous times how proud I am to be Scottish and how proud I have been to compete for Britain too. I dont think these two things necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. Ewan McGregor: Im a Scotsman and I love Scotland with all my heart. But I also like the idea of Great Britain, and I dont know that it wouldnt be a terrible shame to break it all up. Susan Boyle: I am a proud, patriotic Scot, passionate about my heritage and my country. But I am not a nationalist. Billy Connolly: I dont believe in having more layers of government that ordinary people will have to pay for. I think its time for people to get together, not split apart. The more people stay together, the happier theyll be. Wee Jimmy Krankie aka Janette Tough: Alex Salmond can sod off cos I dont want it. We dont live in Scotland so we wont get to vote and I dont think its fair. KEEPING QUIET Andy Murray Singer Annie Lennox: It will be taken by the citizens of Scotland themselves, who need to seriously weigh up the pros and cons, as the responsibility lies wholeheartedly upon their shoulders. Tennis player Andy Murray: Its very difficult to have an opinion these days because half the people will agree with you and half of the people will think youre an absolute idiot Actor James McAvoy: I wont be getting involved at all. Its just counter-productive to my job, its not what I do, and I dont think its helpful to have me involved in it. Last night bookmakers were predicting Mr Salmond will win the debate, with the No campaign has already played down its significance. Ladbrokes was offering odds of 2/5 that Mr Salmond emerges victorious, while former Chancellor Mr Darling is out at 7/4. Blair McDougall, campaign director for the Better Together campaign, said: Voters in Scotland have been listening to the independence debate for over two years now. Surely if Alex Salmond had convincing answers on the details of separation, we would have heard them by now. He added: The referendum debate isnt confined to TV studios. It is taking place in conversations between friends and family across Scotland. Tonights debate was hosted by STVs political editor Bernard Ponsonby. Under the rules agreed after intense negotiations, Mr Ponsonby quizzed both Mr Salmond and Mr Darling, the pair then cross examined each other, before being questioned by members of the audience. Just hours before tonights debate, the No campaign received a major boost with the news it received more than double the donations given to the Yes camp last month. The Electoral Commission reported four pro-Union groups received donations of £151,248 between June 27 and July 24. But two pro-independence groups were given just £65,000, the second pre-poll donations and loans report for the Scottish independence referendum reveals. It means that since December, to No campaign has been given a total of £2,657,723, well ahead of the £1,524,120 donated to nationalists. Both sides have boosted by seven figure donations, with Harry Potter author JK Rowling giving the No campaign £1million and Euromillions winners Chris and Colin Weir the biggest backers for the Yes campaign. Ahead of the debate, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband issued a rare joint declaration promising Scotland more powers – including setting income tax – if it stays in the UK. The Tory, Lib Dem and Labour leaders hope the prospect of more devolution, without severing ties with England, will persuade undecided voters to choose to preserve the Union. The three leaders backed the joint statement declaring: We support a strong Scottish Parliament in a strong United Kingdom and we support the further strengthening of the Parliaments powers. The three go on to promise to strengthen further the powers of the Scottish Parliament, in particular in the areas of fiscal responsibility and social security. Mr Clegg said the declaration is a significant statement of common purpose from the parties that have shaped Scotlands home rule journey. Mr Miliband said: We will introduce a new Scotland Act with more powers for the Scottish Parliament over tax, welfare and jobs. Chancellor George Osborne said the cross-party commitment gave Scotland an opportunity to have the best of both worlds. But Canon Kenyon Wright, who chaired the Scottish Constitutional Convention which spearheaded the campaign for a devolved assembly in the 1990s, said: The latest offer of more powers from the unionist parties looks suspiciously like a rather desperate bribe - but it is not an answer to Scotlands needs. The central issue at stake in the referendum is simple: Where should the ultimate power to make decisions that affect the lives of people in Scotland lie - at Westminster or in Scotland? A number of major companies have sounded the alarm about the impact of independence on their business, raising the prospects of jobs moving south in Scotland goes it alone. +11 Mr Salmonds team hope the success of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow would bolster nationalist sentiment, with a strong showing in medal table Today pensions and savings company Standard Life said it remained in the dark over material issues surrounding Scottish independence. Six months ago the firm, which has been based in Scotland for 189 years, issues a plea to Mr Salmond for clarity over what independence would mean for its four million customers, its shareholders and staff. But in its half-year results today, the company warned: We do not believe that further clarity has been provided on any of these issues since our 2013 annual report and accounts was published on 27 February 2014. The company, which employs about 5,000 people in Scotland out of a total headcount of 8,500, has around £254 billion of assets under administration. BP boss Bob Dudley has warned all businesses would face big uncertainties particularly over the future currency if voters back independence. Defence giant BAE Systems, which employs 37,000 people in the UK, says Scotland remaining in the 300-year-old union offers greater certainty and stability for our business. Lloyds Banking Group, Barclays, Standard Life, Royal Bank of Scotland, the Macfarlane Group and Breedon Aggregates have all listed independence in their risk management sections of their annual reports. Chaos as STV website crashes when millions tune in +11 People around the world trying to watch the debate were greeted with blank screens, as servers struggled to cope with demand Broadcaster STV faced criticism tonight after online viewers reported problems trying to watch the head-to-head debate on Scottish independence. While television viewers in Scotland could watch the clash between the countrys First Minister Alex Salmond and former Chancellor Alistair Darling, a surge in demand online across the rest of the UK caused STVs livestream to crash. On Twitter, STV said: For those having problems with the STV Player at the moment we are aware of this and are working hard to fix it. DARLINGS TOP OF THE TWEETS: EX CHANCELLORS QUESTIONING GETS BIGGEST RESPONSE ONLINE Alistair Darlings repeated questioning of Alex Salmonds currency plans for an independent Scotland got Twitter users most excited during last nights debate, according to figures from the social media website. More than 2,000 tweets were sent during that point of the first live television debate on the referendum, with a total of 186,267 sent overall throughout the show on STV. While a Guardian/ICM poll after the debate seemed to show Better Together campaigner Mr Darling to be the winner by a margin of 12%, the Yes campaign garnered more than double the number of tweets over the course of the day. Twitter said 72,000 tweets were made about the Yes campaign, and 31,000 about the Better Together campaign. Later it added: Were still working on fixing the live stream. The debate will be available online in full a few hours after the programme has finished. A number of viewers expressed their frustration on Twitter. Labour MP Diane Abbott wrote: Finally watching £indyref debate after struggling for 40 minutes with dead STV Iplayer. Broadcaster Andrew Neil added: Trying to watch Salmond v Darling on STV iPlayer. But system seem overwhelmed. Any thoughts? Claire Stewart tweeted: An independent Scotland needs better equipped public broadcasters. £stvcrash £ScotDecides. Labour MP Tom Watson said: It may not be of interest to many but you would have thought a debate on the future of the union would be broadcast UK wide. The two-hour long clash was being broadcast on STV, on ITV Borders Scotland via Freeview and online at stv.tv. Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2717048/Alex-Salmond-Alistair-Darling-head-head-live-TV-debate-Scottish-independence.html#ixzz39aztIXje Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Posted on: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 07:43:51 +0000
Trending Topics
Recently Viewed Topics
© 2015