Food for thought... It doesnt matter what men say or even what we think we know or believe my friend, it matters what Christ said and what Paul said. First very important rule of bible study is, (1) If there appears to be a contradiction in scripture then the interpretation cannot be right. So you cannot teach a contradiction in scripture and be right. Another very important bible study principle of interpretation is, What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis? Answer: Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text. The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants. Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words. Second Timothy 2:15 commands us to use exegetical methods: “Present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” An honest student of the Bible will be an exegete, allowing the text to speak for itself. Eisegesis easily lends itself to error, as the would-be interpreter attempts to align the text with his own preconceived notions. Exegesis allows us to agree with the Bible; eisegesis seeks to force the Bible to agree with us. The process of exegesis involves 1) observation: what does the passage say? 2) interpretation: what does the passage mean? 3) correlation: how does the passage relate to the rest of the Bible? and 4) application: how should this passage affect my life? Eisegesis, on the other hand, involves 1) imagination: what idea do I want to present? 2) exploration: what Scripture passage seems to fit with my idea? and 3) application: what does my idea mean? Notice that, in eisegesis, there is no examination of the words of the text or their relationship to each other, no cross-referencing with related passages, and no real desire to understand the actual meaning. Scripture serves only as a prop to the interpreter’s idea. To illustrate, let’s use both approaches in the treatment of one passage: 2 Chronicles 27:1-2 “Jotham was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years. . . . He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father Uzziah had done, but unlike him he did not enter the temple of the LORD.” EISEGESIS First, the interpreter decides on a topic. Today, it’s “The Importance of Church Attendance.” The interpreter reads 2 Chronicles 27:1-2 and sees that King Jotham was a good king, just like his father Uzziah had been, except for one thing: he didn’t go to the temple! This passage seems to fit his idea, so he uses it. The resulting sermon deals with the need for passing on godly values from one generation to the next. Just because King Uzziah went to the temple every week didn’t mean that his son would continue the practice. In the same way, many young people today tragically turn from their parents’ training, and church attendance drops off. The sermon ends with a question: “How many blessings did Jotham fail to receive, simply because he neglected church?” Certainly, there is nothing wrong with preaching about church attendance or the transmission of values. And a cursory reading of 2 Chronicles 27:1-2 seems to support that passage as an apt illustration. However, the above interpretation is totally wrong. For Jotham not to go to the temple was not wrong; in fact, it was very good, as the proper approach to the passage will show. EXEGESIS First, the interpreter reads the passage and, to fully understand the context, he reads the histories of both Uzziah and Jotham (2 Chronicles 26-27; 2 Kings 15:1-6, 32-38). In his observation, he discovers that King Uzziah was a good king who nevertheless disobeyed the Lord when he went to the temple and offered incense on the altar—something only a priest had the right to do (2 Chronicles 26:16-20). Uzziah’s pride and his contamination of the temple resulted in his having “leprosy until the day he died” (2 Chronicles 26:21). Needing to know why Uzziah spent the rest of his life in isolation, the interpreter studies Leviticus 13:46 and does some research on leprosy. Then he compares the use of illness as a punishment in other passages, such as 2 Kings 5:27; 2 Chronicles 16:12; and 21:12-15. By this time, the exegete understands something important: when the passage says Jotham “did not enter the temple of the LORD,” it means he did not did not repeat his father’s mistake. Uzziah had proudly usurped the priest’s office; Jotham was more obedient. The resulting sermon might deal with the Lord’s discipline of His children, with the blessing of total obedience, or with our need to learn from the mistakes of the past rather than repeat them. Of course, exegesis takes more time than eisegesis. But if we are to be those unashamed workmen “who correctly handle the word of truth,” then we must take the time to truly understand the text. Exegesis is the only way. Read more: gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html#ixzz3ImEqHudC Your interpretation of 2 Thess 2;7 is teaching a contradiction and inserting meaning into scripture that leads to a false conclusion as is much of your supposition in your explanation in those scriptures, in the face of very simple clear and obvious facts and signs of scripture about our LORDS return and what must happen first before we are gathered back to the LORD. It is much better to have strong faith to endure trials and great persecution than to believe that there is a easy way out that is not biblical. To understand the subject of LORDS return we must first identify ALL THE SCRIPTURE FIRST and study it all before reaching a conclusion. The weight of scripture evidence by all its context on the subject is what we are to believe in and accept it as our foundation of biblical truth. Many make the mistake that they themselves dont want to believe in being tested by fire (trials, persecution and tribulation) before they even start to study the subject, they have a pre- determined attitude that will not accept sound biblical doctrine. So that is when those types will insert meaning into scripture to make it say what they want and ignore the rest of scripture that reveals the truth. That is why so many here in America that have not experienced biblical persecution like in world war 2 in Europe, in China, Africa, and the middle east, flock to churches that preach posterity doctrine that claims that will will all be taken up before anything really bad happens and we will not be tested to death for our faith in JESUS CHRIST.Some say that the church is raptured because the church in not mentioned after Rev 4. Rev 4 is speaking to John (singular) and not the church Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet (talking with me;) which said, Come up hither, and (I will shew thee) things which must be hereafter. Many forget that 2 Thess 2:1-17 Paul tells us that the Great Apostasy and the son of sin will be revealed before we are gathered back to the Lord. The reason why you dont see the church mentioned after Rev 4 is because by that point all of the public christian churches will have fallen into the Great Apostasy and or persecution. All you have to do is look around you to see what is happening to the churches now. That also explains why you only see the saints mentioned after Rev 4. Rev 19:14 the armies or (church) as you put it can be explained by 1 Thess 4:13-18 simply put those that have died in Jesus He will bring them with Him when he returns. 1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. In verse 15 and 17 it says we which are alive and remain (remain is greek word 4035 means survive-remain) So this also means that there will be as you put it (tribulation saints) I describe it as believers that survive and remain until the coming of the LORD because Paul uses the word (we) and makes no distinction or says there is a difference in the saints of his day or the (tribulation saints) as you describe it, because as it is written in 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. There will be the Great Tribulation that starts in the middle of the week as in Dan 11:31-45 Matt 24:15-31 and Mark 13:14-27 and Luke 21:20-28 and 2 Thess 2:in Rev 12:7-17 this same event (the starting of the Great Tribulation) is in symbolic language in Rev 12 (the woman is symbolic of Jewish and Christian believers) in the area of Judea from which they are told to flee from into the mountains and in (Rev 12:14into the wilderness) when they see the abomination of desolation in the above mentioned related chapters. Rev 12:7-17 also tells us that Satan gos in pursuit of the remnant of her seed that are scattered across the world in Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corr 15:49-58 it is talking of the same event as in 1 Thess 4:13-18 but just worded a little differently 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the (last trump:) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. The (trump of God) in 1 Thess 4 and the (last trump) in 1 Corr 15 are the same trump as in Matt 24:31 and Rev 11:15 to teach anything else is a contradiction and the word (last) in 1 Corr 15:52 is the greek word 2078 and means (farthest, final (of place or time) ends of , last, latter end, lowest, outermost.) In Zec 9:9-10 are the two advents (comings) of Christ, the first is in verse 9 and the second is in verse 10, Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.... Now compare verse 10 with what happens at the (last seventh trump) in Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. This simply means that the LORD has returned to rule the earth and is not leaving and returning again. In Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the (clouds of heaven) with power and great glory. The phrase (clouds of heaven) or (clouds) can be explained by Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and (a cloud received him) out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. When Jesus returns at the last trump or second advent, He will return in a cloud, in like manner as He ascended in Acts 1:9. Now read 1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the (clouds), to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. To imply that these events are at different times and separate would be teaching a contradiction, it is speaking of the same event and happens at the same time. Another important point to remember is the example of the Exodus how God poured out the plagues on the Egyptians only, and the Israelites were not affected. Is this same idea expressed in Revelation? Yes in Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. and Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: As we know the tribulation saints or those believers (as I call them) at that time get martyred for their faith, they will not take the mark of the beast because as it is written in Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. ALSO in Rev 9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; (but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.) Now if we are to believe that the church has already been raptured, and that there are only tribulation saints left that have recently just made a conversion after the rapture, and forget that the Great Apostasy has already happened at that point and (the great persecution ongoing to the end), then that is when we can get the wrong idea of what is going on in the entire context of this subject Again we must keep in mind the overall context of this subject in which there is a lot to take into consideration and if we are on the right track there will not be a contradiction throughout (all the related scripture) on this subject. Isaiah 26:20-21 can be simply be explained as those that remain and survive unto the coming of the Lord as in 1 Thess 4:17 and those that flee to the mountains in Matt 24:15-23 and then to the wilderness in Rev 12:14-17 and this could also explain Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Now compare Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. This also parallels the example of the Exodus how God protected them and provided all their needs. I say all this in love and in truth of what the word has taught me on this long debated subject for the purpose of the truth and importance of why it is important to understand the LORDS return as Christ states in Matt 24 and also Pauls teachings in 1 Thess and 2 Thess and Corr 15. Also in Matt 24:37-40 and Luke 17:26-30 we have examples of how the coming of the Son of man be first Matt 24:37-40. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. A very important question must be asked first about the Matt verses, (What does the flood represent, tribulation, or the wrath of God?) Of course it is the wrath of God. In Genesis 7 are the days of Noah, so another important question is (When did Noah enter the Ark?) We need to refer to Hebrew experts on Genesis 7, The apparent problem: In reading Genesis 7 it may appear that the Lord told Noah to enter the ark seven days before the flood began (verses 1-4), but verse 13 seems to indicate that Noah and his family entered the ark on the very day the the flood began. In verse 1 God invites them to come and enter. In verse 4 they are told that they have seven days to do this. [Usually it takes us at least several hours to pack for a trip. It is not unreasonable that it took Noah and his family a week to pack an ark and make final preparations.] In verse 10 we learn that the flood began in seven days. Verse 13 says that in that very day (the day of the flood) Noah and his family entered. The verb entered is pluperfect: had come. According to Hebrew language experts Keil and Delitzsch, the idea is not that Noah, with his family and all the animals, entered the ark on the very day on which the rain began, but that on that day he had entered, had completed the entering, which occupied the seven days between the giving of the command (v. 4) and the commencement of the flood (v.10). Leopold agrees and says that Noah would have seven days to complete preparations: The perfect came points to the moment when their entering was an accomplished fact: had come is a permissible rendering. Simply put Noah entered the ark for the final time after he had completed the final preparations (that took seven days) required before their journey on the Ark , that very same day the flood waters manifested themselves on the earth. As in the days of Lot were the same circumstances, Genesis 19:15-26. 15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. 16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. 17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. 18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord: 19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: 20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. 21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. 22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. 23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. 24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. 26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. Both of these examples reveal that on the very same day Noah entered the ark for the final time and Lot left Sodom the wrath of God came as confirmed in Luke 17:26-30, To teach anything else creates another contradiction in scripture that cannot be right. Luke 17:26 -30, 26. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. To teach anything else creates another contradiction in scripture that cannot be right. This is why I believe that their are more major prophetic events to happen before we are gathered back to the LORD (AKA the rapture or as scripture describes it the gathering back to the LORD 2 Thess 2 or Zec 9:10 the second advent ). If you view this subject from the point of only two comings of Christ then all scripture makes sense without contradiction, so when you re-read Matt 24 mark 13 and luke 17 and 21 and all the related scriptures, from the viewpoint of only two comings then all confusion fades away and clarity of GODS word becomes clear. May God Bless us in our search in the scriptures to see if what is taught is true or not.
Posted on: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:35:59 +0000
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