Q: What kinds of thoughts were going through your mind when you made the decision to leave the United States? A: The only thing, frankly, that i was thinking about was keeping them from catching up on me. i wasn’t gonna give them a day for anything. My whole thing was to get away from their grasp; they was kickin’ in doors all over the place. So, it was funny, you know, because i went into disguise and i had to go into the federal building to get a passport. Now, they’re out there kicking down doors, the passport office is on one floor and the FBI was on the next floor and i’m right in there gettin’ my false passport! i managed to get it within 24 hours, and i got hat. My only thing was to get away from them. Now, i’m gonna tell you also, i felt a little relief, because the Panther situation internally, had become untenable with David Hilliard and his clique. i didn’t agree with the way they were taking things. The old emphasis of armed defense & whatnot was just totally squashed, and they were not wanting to deal with anything anymore that would attract attention of the police, and as far as i was concerned that was not what the Panthers represented. i wanted to resign; i had written a letter of resignation for Huey, but i hadn’t given it to him yet. Sister Barbara had the copy, and when that thing came down on me, frankly i was relieved. Because that allowed me to get out of there without being branded a traitor or renegade as they would have done in that newspaper as they did with anybody that didn’t agree with them. So i was able to get out of that hell there without them smearing me across the country with that newspaper saying i was a renegade & whatnot and that allowed me to continue to work outside, so really on one level, it was a relief for me. Q: Did you know what to expect, and did you know where you were going? A: Oh yeah, i knew i was going to Algiers. What to expect? No, ‘cause i was full of illusions. After all the times i had seen the film, “Battle of Algiersâ€, i thought i was going to a revolutionary country, where everybody was revolutionary & whatnot. So, really it was a contradiction, ‘cause when i got there and started seeing graffiti written on the walls and seeing the name ‘Elvis’, i didn’t really understand what that was really all about! But, the atmosphere was very good, because the OAU had a liberation committee where they supported liberation movements and Algeria was the host country. So, at that time in 1970, there were representatives of struggles of people from over 90 countries there. Being within that diplomatic atmosphere, revolutionary atmosphere, that was very good & very positive. But there were contradictions in terms of the Algerian society being revolutionary in the beginning – i didn’t understand what was going on. People loving the French & whatnot; i couldn’t understand that, after all they had been through. Q: When was the International Section of the Black Panther Party established, and how did it come about? A: Well, like i say, the official opening was September 15, 1970, and it came about because the Panther Party had international recognition at that time. Really, there were some inegalities because of that, because We were considered the favorites of everybody. There was no liberation movement in Algiers at that time that had an embassy, except us. Even the people that were waging armed struggle – all the Portuguese colonies, Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bissau – even those people didn’t have an embassy. They were working out of apartments & whatnot. So, that caused some resentment. We weren’t aware of it at the time, but the privileges that We were being given were because people respected us for dealing with the beast from the interior. We were considered heroes, maybe much more than what We deserved, and We didn’t really realize it at the time. So, We created a lot of resentment without really knowing about it. Like, We’re just niggas off the street, [and] We’re lookin’ for a place to have an embassy because they hadn’t given us one yet. So, We’re lookin’ around with real estate agents, they show us a place, it was big enough to put an office upstairs, We could live downstairs, so We rented it and paid a years rent in advance. Well, We didn’t know, but it turned out to be in one of the most bourgie neighborhoods in Algiers! But for us, with our standards from the United States, it didn’t seem like that way to us, but We found out later that it was. We needed cars. Well, if u see old French cars – the R16, and things like that – they were the kinds of cars that in the ‘States, We wouldn’t be caught in! You know, i was driving a GTO, with a 450 cubic centimeter inch engine in there, with 4-on-the-floor when i left the states. So, driving an R16, for me it was almost like a Model T. So, We rented two of them to have enough transportation. But it turns out, that was a car that everybody down there dreamed of having! It was one of the leading cars that you could have. So, a lot of mistakes were made on that level, on our part from being just totally ignorant, but We needed transportation, and that was the biggest car that We could find. Even though it didn’t meet our American standards, it got us around. We didn’t realize the resentment that created in other people’s minds. Like having these two R16s, having a villa in Hidra, then by that time, they had given us the Vietnamese embassy, so We had an embassy of our own. Later, i found out that people were saying, “oh, they’re not revolutionaries, they’re bourgies – they’re bourgeois people.†Can you imagine calling Sekou Odinga, Larry Mack, Eldridge Cleaver & myself bourgie people? (laughing) But those were mistakes We made for not understanding the situation. But then, too, We weren’t like other people from the other liberation movements. They just sat around waiting for handouts. The OAU gave every liberation movement 2,000 dinars a month to live on. You can’t live on that! It was symbolic as far as We were concerned; We dealt with our own needs. Eldridge used a lot of the money from the book he got; plus there were support committees working in Europe. So, We dealt with ourselves without asking anybody for anything, and they wasn’t used to people moving like that, and that created resentment too. We dealt with whatever We felt like had to be dealt with at the time. We’re not in no struggle for people to tell us what to do. So on that level We made a lot of mistakes on the cultural level, not taking into account the cultural differences – We were ignorant to all that. We were just being ourselves. Q: What were the functions of the International Section? A: To disseminate information about the Party all over the world, doing as much as We could. Being really the embassy, We were treated as the official representatives of the american movement. No americans came to Algiers or could leave without our authorization. If someone wanted to come, they would contact us, and then if We accepted them, We would give clearance to the FLN. The people who were in charge of us would give the clearance at the airport. We were the official american representatives in Algiers at the time, because the embassy was closed since the war in 1967. Now, We didn’t know it at the time, but We were also being used by the Algerians because they were in secret negotiations for oil contracts with the american oil companies for the billions of dollars that they were going to use to build the future of their country. So, i’m sure that We were used as a little pressure in their negotiations, but We weren’t aware of that at the time. Q: Tell us about the split in the Black Panther Party as it developed from the view of the International Section? A: Well, as i said, before i left i didn’t agree with the way Hilliard had taken the thing; really using repression and creating an internal police force to vamp on anybody in the organization that didn’t agree with their line, or who didn’t agree with them. He just put himself as a “little-foot Stalinâ€; he became the Stalin of the Black Panther Party. But, us out there, even before i left, our hopes was in Huey. “When Huey gets out, he’s gonna put things back on the line.†So, here We are in 1970 – i think he got out in August – even a month before the International Section opened up. You have to keep in mind: when Huey got shot and got busted and went to jail, you could only get a handful of people together there in the Bay Area that called themselves Panthers. The Panthers were unknown on a national level. So, when he comes out of prison, there’s not only a national organization, it’s on an international basis with international recognition with hundreds and thousands of people outside the prison waiting on him! Oh, the nigga just flipped out. It just went to his head with that megalomania [of] being Huey Newton, you see? So, in the beginning, everybody was just elated. It was just like when Nelson Mandela when he got released. “Finally, Huey’s out; He’s gon’ put things back on the line.†But not only didn’t he put things back on the line, he took the things further than David did! Nigga gets a penthouse up there in Oakland, a cadillac, they started buying clothes, they got off into that cocaine, i heard they even put sistas out on the street! Them niggas just went crazy; started dressin’ like Al Capone and a bunch of gangsters - moving on people, using brutality against people - just became bandits. So, We’re out there, gettin’ little vibes of what’s goin’ on here & there, not really understanding everything, but We’re not going along with that. We got a order that, from now on, when you talk to international representatives or put out anything, Huey Newton is to be called ‘The Supreme Commander’. Well, for us, that nigga done gon’ crazy, calling himself the supreme commander, We ain’t goin’ for that. So naturally, We didn’t do that, We didn’t follow those orders, We continued the thing as it always was: ‘minister of defense’ if We had to talk about him. Then, a week or two later, We got an order changing the other order saying, “No, he’s no longer the Supreme Commander. Say ‘The Supreme Servant of the People’.†We knew that he had just gone out there in left field, and We started having meetings trying to figure out what We were going to do, discussing all the contradictions & whatnot. We were about 25 at that time in Algiers. We didn’t really know when or how We were gonna deal with it, but what happened was Huey had completely isolated us. Anybody caught communicating with us, i think maybe some of them were actually moved on, i don’t know, but total communication was stopped. The only person who had a right to communicate with us was Huey, but We didn’t really know what was going on. Finally, Huey called one night and told Eldridge, “Look, word’s going around that maybe We’re not seeing things eye to eye. Now, i’m gonna be on this live television show tomorrow morning, and We’re gonna call you, and We’re gonna talk on this live show, and We’re gonna show people that everything is alright between us.†So they hung up, and when he hung up, that’s when We decided, “Well, this is it.†We prepared a statement, and the next day they called, and Huey’s on live tv and after the formalities, the speaker asked Eldridge, “Well, is there anything you want to say?†That’s when Eldridge read the statement where We denounced the direction that Huey was taking the Party and all the things they were doing. On live tv! Huey was sitting there. That nigga went crazy! That’s what broke the split out into the open. We couldn’t allow that to continue, We didn’t want people to think that We were going along with those things. So, about an hour later, Huey called me. He asked me, “What side you on, D.C.?â€, i said, “i’m against you.†He laughed, “Hahaha. OK, i’m gonna crush you.†About three days later, i got a phone call from Zayd in a panic, telling me that Robert Webb just got shot in the head up there on 125th & 7th avenue. Well, i went into a depression for about five days. i couldn’t even talk, so really, when he said he was gonna crush me, he really got to me when he offed Robert Webb. Robert Webb was a wonderful brother. And Huey knew it, because he was such a nice brother, that at one time, he was Huey’s personal bodyguard. Q: There are certain events that happened involving the International Section that also made news in the United States. Let’s talk about some of them for a moment. Could you tell us a little about the two airplane hijackings, the one involving the $500,000 ransom. Can you tell us a little about that one? A: Yeah, Roger Holder was his name, ex-Vietnam veteran – he had flown helicopters over there, he really wasn’t affiliated with any organization or anything – but his personal conscience told him to deal with that; hijack a plane. He wasn’t very political, so his demands weren’t real clear in the beginning. He was asking for the release of Angela Davis and a few other demands that appeared to be progressive. Finally, he got a plane to come on over to Algiers and join us. His girlfriend at the time, Katherine Holder, was with him. When he arrived, he was received as a hero in Algiers. Everybody was around him; i went to talk to his girlfriend. So, i asked her, “hey, what group you with?†She said, “Oh, i ain’t with no group, i just came along for a ride.†So that shows you what level that was on. As i said before, We didn’t know that Algerians were in negotiations for these oil contracts. Naturally, they let the people in their country and they became part of the group, but they gave the airplane back, and they confiscated the ransom money. But, because Blacks didn’t have confidence in the news media, there were people there in Detroit that didn’t believe that they had given the plane back and the money. So they decided to do the same thing. They took a plane and came over with a million dollars ransom. But by that time, the Algerians wanted to put a stop to that, so in the beginning, they kept us separate from them. That was the McNairs, George Brown, George Tillotson, and another one called Knott. Finally, they let them get in contact with us, but naturally, they gave the money back and they gave the airplane back. The Algerians didn’t want that kind of pressure; they wanted to put a stop to that. So, they created a very uncomfortable situation for everybody, and We knew by then that because the split had gone down and things were very tense there amongst us there in Algiers, that it was time to get out of there. Now after the split, the people on the east coast, including Sekou & Larry that were there in Algiers, decided that they didn’t want to have anything to do with the Central Committee. Being a Central Committee member, that meant me too. Even though they knew that i was not part of all that stuff that was going on, they didn’t want to make an exception. They cut me loose also. That hurt me pretty bad, so what i did was i resigned, and i was living out there in the suburbs of Algiers. But because We were there as a group, i didn’t want to cause any political problems with the government or anybody, so i didn’t make it public that i was resigned. So, i had been living out there since January. Roger didn’t come until June; the other hijackers didn’t come until September, so i really hadn’t been participating in any of the decisions. But, by the time that last plane came, everybody just saw dollar signs. When i say ‘everybody’, i mean the others, not me because i knew they were gonna give that back too. Q: When the takeover at Attica state prison occurred in September 1971, one of the prisoners’ demands was asylum in a non-imperialistic country. How did the International Section respond to this demand? A: Well, We were very favorable toward it. We personally didn’t do anything because Bobby Seale was on the scene there, and We didn’t have communications with anybody directly on the thing. But, if We had been contacted and anybody had been released, We could have welcomed them in Algiers. We still had our diplomatic status with the FLN, and We could have welcomed anyone there. That wouldn’t have been a problem. Q: What were the events leading up to the dismantlement of the International Section of the Black Panther Party? A: Well, all those internal dissensions that i was talking about. You see, after that last plane came over, everybody just wanted out of there, and i’ll explain why. They decided that they were gonna make some kind of move and put pressure on the government to give up that million dollars! Well, i came out from my suburbs where i was living to be at the meeting, and right away i told them they was crazy. The government is not going to risk the future of their country for a handful of niggas and a million dollars. So, they just told me to shut up, they didn’t want to hear anything i had to say. i said, “OK, y’all keep my part.†Pete O’Neal jumped up and said, “Anybody else feel like that?†i went on back home, ‘cause i knew that if they did anything, they was gonna be in trouble. i had a listening post set up. Where i had radios tuned in on all the stations, even local stations in the states, and tape recorders & whatnot. So, i’m sitting there listening to the BBC news at one o’clock in the afternoon, and i hear a statement that Eldridge & the hijackers done put out condemning Boumedienne & the Algerian government. i knew he’s done blown it. Within five minutes, i get a phone call from Larry Mack, “Call New York! Call New York! They got us surrounded by machine guns!†But i had a woman friend there at the house, and before i did anything, i got my guns, my ammunition, my stash, and i gave it to her and said, “Get out of here, quick!â€. The bus stop was right across the street. While she’s still standing at the bus stop, the police show up at my house. Because they didn’t know that i had resigned, you see. But they saw that i was there by myself. They searched that house for everything, naturally they didn’t find anything, ‘cause my woman was standing there at the bus stop with everything in her bag & she managed to get away with it. So, they put everybody at the office under house arrest, and that night i hear sirens come again, and they brought all the hijackers and put them out there at my house to get them out of sight, and put us under house arrest with two policemen on the door. i could only go out to do shopping with a policeman accompanying me. Well, political interventions with the president and everything managed to calm down his anger for what they had done. Everybody was released from house arrest after the weekend was over. For all technical purposes, that was the end, it was just a question now of people getting out of there. Unfortunately, that coincided with the time that i had planned to leave. So all the plans i had put together to get out of there were blown away by all this house arrest & having police on the door. So, i had to choose alternative means and i managed to get out of there at the end of September. Really, i was not there when everybody managed to get away & go their own different ways. i went back in the beginning of ’74. When i got back, everybody had already gone. i went back as a political refugee because the authorities there had confidence in me; they had known me, they had seen how i worked, naturally they gave me political asylum. They even helped me get an apartment & a job. i stayed there ‘til 1977, all by myself as a political refugee. Q: When you left the United States and went into exile, the BPP was a flourishing organization with national and international support; less than six years later it no longer existed. How did it feel, and how did this affect you? A: It was hard accepting and realizing the fact that instead of Huey straightening things out and getting the party back on the road, that he had just taken it downhill. That hurt real bad. As far as i was concerned personally, when the split went down in February of ’71, the party was over. The party as it had become known, was finished. They did all kind of little things trying to become a legitimate political party to get the support of the people, but really a lot of it was just to disguise all their criminal activities. They had become hoodlums & racketeering people. It had just become Huey’s personal tool. It was over in February ’71 with the split, and that hurt really bad. Because of all the comrades that had died & were in prison for the principles We had learned from Huey & Eldridge – that was a hard blow. Really, it was like becoming an orphan. Like a lot of people with the communist parties disappearing all over the world, it’s being like an orphan not knowing what to do; knowing that there’s still stuff to be done, but not knowing what to do. So i had decided to continue the activities that i had been doing when i became the field marshal. i just cut off all communication with everybody, and i worked to leave Algiers and go back in and join up with the people i had been associated with. But unfortunately, you have this problem of survival. And everybody i know, everybody i know, got busted sooner or later, dealing with survival problems! i arrived there in the end of ’72, by the summer of ’73 i was all by myself. But i didn’t want to live there just to be living there; i was only back to continue the struggle. i mean, going to the store to buy food or buy a pack of cigarettes and wondering every time i see a policeman if this is gonna to be it, if i gotta go down, well i didn’t wanna go down just for personal survival. Going down for a struggle is one thing, i was there for that; but going down for personal survival? i didn’t relate to that, so i left out again and that’s when i went back to Algiers as a political refugee.
Posted on: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 04:19:37 +0000
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