Srila Prabhupadas Philosophy Discussion with Shyamasundara dasa on Charles Darwin. In a recent interview, Dr. Stephen Meyer offered a rebuttal of Darwins theory that employed Darwins own scientific methodology. Pointing out a hitch in Darwins theory of evolution, Cambridge Dr. Meyer, a trained philosopher of science, presented his own arguments for intelligent design. Darwin believed the appearance of purposeful design in living organisms was a kind of illusion, and explained it as a byproduct of an undirected process such as natural selection. However, Darwin recognized that the abrupt or sudden appearance of the first animals in the fossil record around 530 million years ago (in a period called the Cambrian Explosion) posed a challenge to his theory, which predicted a slow, gradual evolution of life. Darwin thought that future fossil discoveries would fill in the missing gaps, but whats happened is just the opposite-- a wider variety of Cambrian animals with intricate forms have been found. In unraveling the mystery of the Cambrian Explosion, Meyer viewed the period as a kind of information revolution, the first since the origin of life itself. But I realized there was a cause of which we know from our ordinary experience, our uniform and repeated experience (which Darwin taught was the basis of all scientific reasoning) that is capable of generating information. And that cause is intelligence, its mind, its conscious or rational activity, he declared. That led him to develop a rigorous, and scientific argument for intelligent design, using the same reasoning methods that Darwin employed. One biologist said that natural selection does a good job of explaining the survival of the fittest, but not the arrival of the fittest, Meyer commented. He differentiated his theory from Creationism, noting that the method of reasoning is different. The theory of intelligent design is not attempting to interpret scripture, its rather an inference from biological evidence, he said. Meyer further theorized that no agent from within the cosmos was responsible for the fine-tuning of life, and the design of the very fabric of the universe. He thinks were looking at an intelligence, which originates beyond the universe itself. While some modern scientists and academicians strive to formulate solid arguments refuting Darwinism, the devotees have in hand the quintessential arguments defeating this theory. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, in one his philosophy discussions with Shyamasundar dasa, provides a wealth of arguments that deconstruct and disprove Darwins theories. We present this lengthy interview transcript here, in ten parts. Hare Krsna Charles Darwins Evolution: It is simply theory Syamasundara: Darwin is the originator of the doctrine of natural selection, or survival of the fittest. That means that in the course of adapting to the environment one type of animal will develop in a particular way which is best suited for that environment, and he will pass on his superior qualities to his offspring so that that particular species will survive, whereas another, which is not so suitable to that environment, will die out. This is called natural selection. Nature selects different species that can best survive. Prabhupada: So what is the explanation of the nature? Syamasundara: Nature is a combination of physical forces in the universe. Prabhupada: What does he say about nature? Syamasundara: All phenomenon can be explained by means of physical laws. Prabhupada: Who made these physical laws? Syamasundara: He is not so much concerned with... Prabhupada: Why is he not concerned? If he is putting some theory for understanding, why he is not concerned with some primary principles? Syamasundara: He says that we cannot be certain how everything began. Prabhupada: Then how he is certain that this natural circumstance is favorable? How he is making certain? Syamasundara: He made many, many tests; he has much evidence. Prabhupada: What is that evidence? Syamasundara: Animals adapt to their environments, just like if you... Prabhupada: Why he takes animals first? Why not others? Syamasundara: Animals, trees, plants, insects, men, he examines all the different varieties. For instance if you put a certain animal in a cold climate, he will develop hair to protect his body against the cold, and he will pass on this characteristic to his sons. Prabhupada: The people in Greenland, do they develop hair? Syamasundara: They dont have so much hair, but they develop very fatty tissues. Their eyes are slitted so there is not so much snow and bright light... Prabhupada: Then development of hair is not only the existent; there are other many conditions. You cannot say that development of hair is due to the condition as he says, natural condition. That is not a fixed-up... Syamasundara: I was just using that as an example of how a species can adapt to its environment. Prabhupada: The question is that this development of body, is there any plan that this body should exist in certain conditions of nature, and therefore he must have these equipments, either you say, tissues or veins or hair? Who has made these arrangements? That is the question. Syamasundara: His answer to that is chance variation. Prabhupada: That is nonsense. There is no such chance. If he says chance, that means he is a nonsense. Syamasundara: He examines that... Prabhupada: He examines what is already existing. But our question is, who has made these different circumstances for the existence of different animals? That is our question. Syamasundara: Just like the frog may lay millions of eggs. Out of all those millions of eggs, a few--three, four--may survive. That means those who were the fittest, by chance they happened to be best, fittest to survive. Otherwise too many frogs... Prabhupada: If I say that frogs or many others animals lay eggs, millions... Just like the snake gives birth to so many hundreds and thousands of snakes at a time. So, if so many snakes are allowed to exist, then there will be disturbance. Therefore the natures law is that the big snake eats up the small, small snakes. That is natures law. But behind this natures law there is brain. That is our proposition: that natures law is not blind. There is brain, and that brain is God. We get it from Bhagavad-gita: mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. So whatever things are happening in the material nature, it is being done by indication of the Supreme Lord in order to maintain everything in order. Just like the snake is laying eggs, thousands. If they are not killed, then the whole world will be full of snakes only. So there is a plan that the snakes will eat. Just like tiger, tiger. They also have their cubs, but the male tiger kills them and the female tiger hides them. So many tigers are coming out. So that is another economic (indistinct) theory that whenever there is large number of population there must be some war, epidemic, some earthquake, like that. They should die. So these natural activities are planned; they are not chance. As he is saying, chance, that means he has no sufficient knowledge. Syamasundara: On the other hand, he has a huge amount of evidence which is gathered... Prabhupada: Evidence, that is all right. Evidence, we have also got evidence. Evidence must be there. As soon as there is evidence, he should not speak anything of chance. Syamasundara: Just like out of millions of frogs, one frog will be better adapted to living in the water. Prabhupada: That is not chance; that is plan. That is plan. That is not chance. He does not know that. As soon as he says chance, that means his knowledge is not perfect. Chance... If a man says chance when he cannot explain, that is evasive. Therefore he is not in perfect knowledge; therefore he is not fit for giving any knowledge. He is cheating, thats all, because he has no perfect knowledge. Syamasundara: He sees a plan or a design also, but he sees it in... Prabhupada: Therefore if he sees a plan and design, then whose design? As soon as you call it design, there must be designer. If you call it a plan, there must be a planner. That he does not know. Syamasundara: He would say that the plan is only the workings of a mechanical nature. Prabhupada: No. That is nonsense. Nature is not working mechanically. There is a plan. The sun is rising exactly according to calculation. Calculation not first; first the sun rises. But we get experience than in such-and-such season the sun rises at such-and-such time, so in that season, exactly to the minute, to the second, the sun rises. So it is neither chance nor whimsical. There is a p]an. There is a plan. Syamasundara: Could it not be said that that is mechanical... Prabhupada: Who made this mechanical? As soon as you bring the question of mechanical, there must be a brain who set up the machine. Mechanical means, just like these, your all Telex is working. That is mechanical. That is all right. But behind that machine... (break) Syamasundara: Isnt it possible that some day we may be able to discover the source of all these chemicals? Prabhupada: There is no question of discovering; there is already, it is known. It is not known to you. We know. It is not known to you, but it is known to us. The Vedanta says, janmady asya yatah. The original source of everything: Brahman. We know it. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: I am the origin of everything. So we know that there is big brain who is doing everything, mayadhyaksena prakrtih. So we know. Darwin may not know. That is his foolishness. Syamasundara: He might say the same thing about us. Prabhupada: No. He cannot say the same thing about us. We accept Krsna, not blindly. Our predecessors, our acaryas, our learned scholars, they have accepted. So we are not blind. Rather, he cannot say anything. As soon as he says chance, that means he has no knowledge. We dont say chance. We have got an original cause. But he says chance; therefore he has got no knowledge. Syamasundara: The scientists have found that we grow up out of a set of genes in the sperm of the male. They are called genes, tiny cells. Prabhupada: Thats all right. Wherefrom the genes came? Syamasundara: These can be altered by cosmic radiation. Supposing a cosmic ray hits the gene, it may change it slightly so that maybe it comes out with... Prabhupada: That is not the question. Suppose if you have got life, I can kill you with a knife. But the question is, Wherefrom this life came? I can change, merely with a knife, your life. That is not a very important thing, changing. The thing is to find out the origin, wherefrom the genes came. Syamasundara: He has a book called The Origin of Species, and so... Prabhupada: First of all, you are testing his knowledge. Syamasundara: Im trying to explain. You want to know what he thinks is the origin; so he traces back through geological excavations to the most simple forms of life, and they see that in the... Prabhupada: What is the simplest form of life? Syamasundara: They find at the lowest level of the soil layers which have built up through the years, they find small one-celled animal forms, sea shells, like that. Prabhupada: How is it forming? Syamasundara: Gradually, through the ages, they have become more and more complex to this age when... Prabhupada: What is the beginning? Syamasundara: In the beginning they have found only a one-celled animals. Prabhupada: They found, but beyond that they do not know. They found it. It was already there. So wherefrom it came? Svarupa Damodara: Another definition that is raised by most so-called modern scientists, they try to find out the meaning of what is (indistinct) and what is invention. So many scientists have posed also the concept that invention, strictly speaking, is a paradox. When we say invention, I invented something, somebody invented radio, and somebody invented such-and-such thing, it is not really an invention. Prabhupada: Yes. Svarupa Damodara: They say it cannot come out of nothing. It is already there. Prabhupada: Yes. Svarupa Damodara: We did not know it, that it was already there. Foolishly we say that we invent these things. Prabhupada: You see the action is already going on. You see all of a sudden something comes. But that is not perfect knowledge. Syamasundara: Then how do you explain that... Prabhupada: We explain that everything, the source, the original source of everything is Brahman, Absolute Truth, Krsna. Syamasundara: What we are discussing is this doctrine of natural selection, or survival of the fittest. Prabhupada: Yes. That natural selection, that law is made by Krsna. Syamasundara: So there is a law of... Prabhupada: Yes. Certainly. The scientists say that we do not know wherefrom it is coming. All of a sudden I see something and he says I invented it. It is not invention. It is already there. He could not see before, and now he can see. Thats all. Syamasundara: Just like a dinosaur, these huge animals once existing in... Prabhupada: That is his imagination. Syamasundara: They found bones... Prabhupada: Bones, thats all right. There are many... We also say from Vedic sastras there is fish, timingila, which can swallow up big, big whales, you see. That is also very big. There is the Varaha incarnation who picked up the whole earth on the tusk. How much big the Varaha animal was so that it can pick up the whole earth, earthly planet just like a ball. He cannot imagine such big animals. Syamasundara: But my point is that they excavated down into the ground and they found that gradually, through the years, that animals are evolving towards more and more complex forms, from very simple forms in the water to land animals, plants, these big dinosaurs, then they died out. Prabhupada: If they died out, that means there is no more existence of that animal. But how can you say that the animal is existing somewhere else? Now, according to his statement that from a certain basic principle, by gradual evolution, the human body is coming, now his theory is that the human body is coming from the monkeys. Syamasundara: They are related; they come from the same... Prabhupada: Related? Everything is related. That is another thing. But if the monkeys body is developing into a human body... Syamasundara: Yes. Apelike man. Prabhupada: Then after development of human body, why is the monkey species does not cease? Why not it does not cease? Syamasundara: They are like branches of the same tree, he calls them. Prabhupada: Branches of the tree, just like we see now the monkey is existing and human being is also existing. Similarly, we say what he sees the beginning of life, at that time also there was human beings. Syamasundara: They find no evidence of them. Prabhupada: Why no evidence? Syamasundara: In the ground. Theres no evidence in the ground. Prabhupada: In the ground? That means that in the ground there is the only evidence? There is no other evidence? Bali-mardana: Scientists think that the only way to maintain integrity is not to accept anything until they can see it or understand it with their own senses and mind, by material evidence. That is their whole platform of empiric research, that nothing can be accepted until it is proven by their own sensuous experience. Prabhupada: But they cannot prove that there was no human being wherefrom they are starting their study. They cannot prove. Syamasundara: It appears from the evidence that there are apelike men in certain layers of soil... Prabhupada: The apelike man or manlike ape is already existing. If you say development just like from this, it has developed this, there should be no existence of this. Karya-karanam. Thats all. Now when I see still both are existing... Syamasundara: The former doesnt exist any more. Prabhupada: No, no, no. If from monkey, man is coming, so then when monkey develops into man, the monkey should not exist. Karya-karanam, cause and effect. When the effect is there, the cause is finished now. Syamasundara: The monkey didnt cause the man; they came from the same common ancestor. That is their explanation. They... Prabhupada: That is, we say that all we come from God, the same ancestors, the same father. What is the difference? Bali-mardana: Everyone has the same ancestor. Prabhupada: The same ancestor. What is the new thing? Syamasundara: But if I am a Darwinist, your explanations are still not satisfactory to me. Im not convinced because I see... Prabhupada: My explanation is that the original father is Krsna. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, sarva-yonisu kaunteya: As many forms are there, I am the bija pradah pita, I am the seed-giving father. So what is your objection to this? Syamasundara: Well, if I examine the layers of earth, I find no evidence in any of the layers below of any... Prabhupada: You are packed up with the layers of the earth, that is all. That is your boundary of knowledge. That is not knowledge. There are many other evidences. Syamasundara: But certainly, if there were men living millions of years ago, they would have... Prabhupada: But man is still living. Man is still living. Syamasundara: ...they would have left evidence behind them, tangible evidence, that I could see the remains of their civilization. Prabhupada: So if I say that the human society, man after death is burned into ashes, so where does he get the bones? Syamasundara: Well, thats possible, but... Prabhupada: According to our Vedic system, when a man is dead, he is burned into ashes. Where..., why the rascal would get the bones? Syamasundara: But there are not other... There are no cities... Prabhupada: The animals, they are not burned. They remain. But human beings they burn into ashes. So he cannot find the human bones. Bali-mardana: Another thing is that after a certain number of years, bones cease to be bones. They turn back into chemicals and merge into the earth. Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: But what about cities and tools, these things? There must be some evidence. In the lowest layer there are clam shells that have become fossilized. In the lower levels millions of years back they find clam shells. Bali-mardana: They say its been millions of years, but how do they prove it has been millions of years? Syamasundara: Through radioactivity. Bali-mardana: But that is an imperfect method, devised by imperfect senses. Svarupa Damodara: It is limited. It is limited. It is very hard to find five thousand or six thousand years back. Bali-mardana: They dont even agree amongst each other about what the age of things are. Syamasundara: Just like if you go down a hundred feet below the soil, that soil has been down there for a long time. But there is no evidences of men, actually civilized creatures. Prabhupada: Why he is trying to find out mens bones there? What is the... Syamasundara: Im just saying that it appears, because layer after layer is deposited in the earths crust, that the animal forms are evolving toward more complex forms, from simple animals to bigger animals, and then more complex, then to the civilized man. Prabhupada: From where it began? Syamasundara: It began with the simplest form. Prabhupada: What is that simplest form? Syamasundara: Small one-celled animals, then bivalves, then mollusks, then simple forms of aquatics. Bali-mardana: So the one-celled animals must be God. Syamasundara: That isnt what Im talking about; Im just saying that this evolution appears to exist, evolution of species, from simplest forms to more complex forms. Thats Darwins idea. Prabhupada: But the simplest form is still existing and the complex form is also existing at the present moment. Not that from the simplest form developed, developed, developed. Just like development means, just like I have developed my childhood body. The childhood body is no more there. But it is a fact I have developed from childhood body to this body. There are so many. So similarly, all the species are existing simultaneously, still. Syamasundara: They find no evidence in the earlier times that these complex forms existed. Prabhupada: No, no. Earlier times or modern times, when I see all different species, 8,400,000 species of life still existing, so what is the question of development? It existed long ago also. You might not have seen it, you have not source of knowledge to understand, but you have to accept it, because all these species are now existing. Similarly, millions of years ago all these species existed. You might have missed. That is a different thing. Syamasundara: Then it is simply a matter of one opinion against another, because the scientists say... Prabhupada: No. It is not opinion, it is a fact. Do you think that this development has ceased all other species, simply human being is there? Syamasundara: No. But I dont see evidence that all these complex forms... Prabhupada: I have said that one, this, by evolution, one after another, the human form is there. The Darwin theory is that some forty thousand years ago there was no human beings. Syamasundara: Several million years. Prabhupada: But we dont see that. Because at the present moment we see that all the species are there existing, including human beings. Syamasundara: He says that they evolved. That is... Prabhupada: They evolved, but they are still existing. Evolved, that is another thing. But all of them are existing still. So how you can say that millions of years they did not exist, all? His theory is that... Syamasundara: Because there is not evidence that they exist. Prabhupada: This is the evidence: if now all the species of life are existing, why not millions of years ago? What do you say? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. It was existing, but simply we did not know. Prabhupada: Yes. That is one-sided test. Syamasundara: You can say they existed, but show me. I dont see any proof. Prabhupada: You do not see the animals, aquatics, birds, bees, trees--everything--is existing? Syamasundara: Yes. But ten million years ago, according to my excavations, there were no beasts; there were all aquatics. Prabhupada: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Ten millions of... Ten million years ago... You cannot give a history of ten millions. It is your imagination. Where is the history of ten millions of years? You are simply imagining, that is your word. But where is historical evidence? You cannot give history more than three thousand years, and you are speaking of ten millions of years. This is all nonsense. How can you go... There is no history in the human civilization for ten millions of years. Syamasundara: If I dig far into the ground, layer by layer... Prabhupada: No, no. Dirt... You are calculating ten millions--it may be ten years. Because you cannot give history of the human society more than three thousand years, so how can you speak of ten million, twenty million? Where were you then? It is all imagination. You were existing(?), so existence was not there. How can you say that ten million or twenty million years ago these things happened? This is simply imagination. In that way everyone can imagine and say some nonsense. Everyone can imagine their own way. I can say No, it is not ten million years. It is fifty millions years. Syamasundara: They have a scientific way of testing that things disintegrate at a certain rate. Prabhupada: But here is a scientist, and he does not agree with that. Syamasundara: What about the half-life of certain elements? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. The, normally, what they call the age determination, or how old a species is, they normally find out from this so-called (indistinct). They find some bone or something which contains normally carbon(ate). And they get this age of the elements or age of these findings by so-called Carbon 14 method. Carbon 14 is an isotope of normal carbon, it is called Carbon 12. Carbon 14 is radioactive. Its one they put in the radioactive testing, and they find out because it follows the normal chemical laws or physical laws. This is governed by the Lord Himself, by Krsna Himself. Theyre finding the chemical lowest form, and from that chemical lowest they normally try to reduce the, how old the sample is, and that method is very limited, it is not (indistinct). (break) Prabhupada: ...fact, because we see all different species of life existing along with human beings. Therefore it should be concluded this is always existing. Human life is always existing. That is our first charge against him. He cannot say there was no human life. Syamasundara: But we do not see any dinosaurs existing. Prabhupada: You do not see--your power is very limited--but we have to conclude in this way, when we see at the present moment all the different species of life are existing. Therefore it is existing always. Syamasundara: But I dont see all the... Prabhupada: You dont see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited. You dont see. And because you dont see, it is not to be accepted. So many people say, I dont see God. That does not mean we shall accept, Oh, so many people say--majority of people, will say like that--We dont see God. Then we are merely crazy fellow, we are after God? Syamasundara: No. But dinosaurs... Prabhupada: But simply by dinosaurs missing you cannot say that what about other all species of life, other. Syamasundara: Many, many, many, many are extinct, according to... Prabhupada: I am accepting many are extinct, but the evolutionary process, it means one extinct, another comes. But we see that the monkey, from monkey, man comes. The monkey is there and man is there. The monkey is not finished. Syamasundara: I remember last time when we discussed this, you said, Well, then, why dont we see men coming out of monkeys still? Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: Why hasnt some man been born out of a monkey? Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: In our experience... Prabhupada: The monkey is existing and man is existing. Syamasundara: So if men came from monkeys, why dont we see it still happening? Thats what you said. Prabhupada: Yes. That is our argument. Syamasundara: So if you accept that there is an evolution, do you accept that the bodies change because of changing conditions of the natural surroundings? Prabhupada: Body is not changing. The body is already there. The soul is changing bodies, transmigrating from one body to another. Bali-mardana: Darwin doesnt accept that there is a fixed number of species. Rather, the number of species may vary at any time according to the natural selection. But he doesnt give any axiom that there are certain numbers of species from which all other variations come. We are saying that there are 8,400,000 species to begin with. Prabhupada: But if first of all you give account for eight million species--you have no account. We say these are the fixed-up species. But your calculation of species, first of all give us account for eight millions, then you say, The list is not complete. Syamasundara: Their idea is that theres constant... Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, within that eight millions, but you cannot give us list. Syamasundara: They say that there is new species always evolving. Prabhupada: That is not new. That is within the eight millions. You could not find the same thing, you could not find, before that; now we are finding your species. You could (not) give us a complete list. What is the evolutionary process wherefrom it began and how its coming? You cannot give any fixed-up list. That is your imperfect knowledge. You are simply imagining. It may be changed, It may be chance, or this or that. Thats all. Syamasundara: Just like, lets say some condition changes suddenly in an environment... Prabhupada: Yes. Any condition changes, but within the eight millions. Because you cannot give us any list, so then you have to accept whatever species of life may take by changes or circumstance with this or that. That will be within the eight millions. Syamasundara: Just like if you open(?) a marketplace, at any given point you can go through the marketplace and see that theres this kind of person, this kind of person and... Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: And he may go away from the marketplace. So if because he goes away, you cant say that that person doesnt exist any more because hes not observable there. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Svarupa Damodara: Actually, in Darwins concept he used the natural selection, but he doesnt go far enough what that nature is. He used the term natural, but he does not know how to... Prabhupada: Yes. Explain what is nature. That means insufficient knowledge. Syamasundara: He simply observed there are mutations in nature. For instance, he thinks that perhaps at one time... Prabhupada: That means nature is working. Syamasundara: Yes. Prabhupada: Nature is working, but he cannot explain how nature is working. Syamasundara: At one time he says that one ape developed an opposing thumb so he was able to use tools, grasp things, so he became superior and passed that quality on to his offspring and that developed into man. Simply by... Prabhupada: Then when there is offspring, then the same question comes: Why the monkey does not produce offspring--a man? What is this nonsense? Bali-mardana: Scientists often take the shelter of this premise, that its not..., we dont..., were not trying to find out. Whenever theyre asked what is the original source, they say, Were not concerned with that. Were concerned with just examining the phenomenon of that source. Prabhupada: Yes. That is childish. That is childish. Just like I have seen the phenomena, without man there cannot be singing. In the box there must be one man there. This is childish calculation, thats all. Phenomenal study means childish. A fan, in our childhood we will think that a fan is running, there must be some ghost who is running it. So this sort of phenomenal study is not scientific study. It is not scientific. If we dont find the original cause, that is not scientific. Bali-mardana: Thats what theyre looking for. But because they cant produce a satisfactory answer, they have to say, Well, were not looking for that. They cant come forward with an answer. Prabhupada: Yes. That is, what it is called? (Sanskrit), principle logic, or something like that, it is called. Syamasundara: (indistinct) in question. Prabhupada: That is not perfect knowledge.
Posted on: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 11:41:40 +0000
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