Very well written article - well documented with good evidence - found on playerscasinoguide.tumblr/ Not all dice are created equal Another losing day for me at Spirit Mountain. This is now quite common for me there and have nothing but losing days for weeks now. Everyone seems to be commenting that the rolls are short with a PSO or near POS. darksiders also get pasted with lots of sevens and Yo’s on the come-out roll. I have not seen a hot hand, except for my own a few weeks ago, in a very long time, well anything over 20 rolls that is. I play a progressive craps as described by The Dice Doctor, a method that in Vegas I would either be up a few hundred or down 80 to 100, but at Spirit Mountain I am constantly down more than half of my buy-in that is not typical for this method. We were shooting the dark red opaque heavy dice with the Spirit Mountain (AKA SM) branding. These dice are much more heavy than the normal clear dice and I was not doing well, and actually nobody was doing well. So, Billy, the Vietnamese guy who is a well known DI and regular there asked me if I had a car. I said yes, then he said lets go to Chinook winds, the casino that is 20 minutes away at the coast. Since the dice where just horrible at SM, I said why not and we went. Apparently Billy is night blind and cannot drive that road from SM to CW at night…. But Billy seemed to have something to tell me… He was eager to get me out of the casino. On the way there we talked and he said that SM uses these cheap dice that are unbalanced. He said that the majority of Seven-outs are 6-1, where as normal dice the seven outs should be evenly distributed from 3-4, 5-2,6-1. I said that I noticed the same that the 3-4 seven out was rare, but on my tosses it was always the 5-2 seven out. Billy said it was due to my odd dice set that I have to use there to even get more than 5 rolls before a seven out. Billy is an degreed engineer who designs trucks for a major trucking manufacture. He is married with kids and I have never seen him drink or express anything that would bring his character in to question. He does not strike me as crazy or delusional, or as someone who is psychotic or otherwise. I asked Billy how many times he goes to SM. He said about 2 or 3 times a week, mostly late at night to avoid the amateurs as he calls the random shooters. He lives in Salem so it is only a 30 minute drive for him. I asked him how long this situation has been going on and he said for quite some years, mostly on a Friday or Saturday night. They bring out the better dice during the weekday evenings after the busses leave. If he is there on a weekend, he only hunts for hot hand or tires to find a ride to Chinook Winds. He told me that you can buy the used dice at the casino gift shop and he has bought hundreds of dice from all of the Indian casinos in the North West and in the Las Vegas casinos, and has device that you can spin the dice on to see if they are balanced – he said that the SM dice are unbalanced. He did say that there is one set of clear dice that they rarely bring out, but only on a slow Wednesday or Thursday night when there is not much action going on that is a completely different brand of dice all that produces very different results than the dark red heavy opaque dice. He said you can actually win on those nights when the clear dice are out. I asked Billy if the casino alters them, and he said no that they just buy bad dice from these cheep manufactures in Mexico. These dice are not precision at all, and the control number, pips and Logo Brand is deep and filled in with a heavy resin that can greatly unbalance the dice. He said that it is legal for the Indian casino to buy such dice because there is no regulation on where they can buy the dice from, or what specs the dice have to have. Actually, there is no State gaming regulation in Oregon other than the State Police who only issue permits for casino nights for charities, and the Tribal Casinos are self-regulated – meaning they can do whatever they want. I already know that the majority of slots is 89% return rate and that the Video Poker is 97.5% return, and blackjack is very watered down as well, and they only offer 6-deck BJ with rules that give the player a 1.02% house edge. By all accounts this would not be a casino to play at for any advantage player or anyone who is looking to win…but it is the closest casino to Portland where I live. I did notice last night that when I shot that the dice did seem to have a wobble in the air and would separate on their own paths, as if magic hands were out there pulling them apart and when they hit the table and the back wall they would go left and right often to an undesired result. When I saw that I just assumed it was me, my toss was messed up or something I did was wrong …but then, perhaps it was something else? I asked Billy if anyone else has talked to him about this or agrees with what he is saying. He said that Doug, a retired medical doctor came to this conclusion on his own and Billy meet up with him at Chinook Winds where they talked about this issue. Other players I know over the years have more or less eluded that the Craps tables are often cold and choppy, cannot get any good rolls, that they are bouncy, that short rolls and lots of craps numbers is what happens there. And, if the dice are bias then that is sort of what would happen…lots of garbage numbers and a predominance of one seven-out (6-1) over the other seven out. I told Billy that this sort of sounded like “loser talk”, you know the sort of talk when you hear from someone who has lost a few hundred on some crappy slot or other high house edge game. He laughed and said that he would never talk about this in the Casino or say anything to the casino about this because he knows that people would only think he is crazy, won’t believe him, or to be some loser-type blaming his loses on “crooked dice”. He said that he only tells me this because he sees I am serious about Craps and not some drunk or amateur player. So, I arrived at Chinook Winds So at Chinook Winds, AKA CW, they have a one 14 foot table. Billy said that he and Doug comes here all the time because they can make money at this casino. So the Frat boys are at the table drunk and having fun, but the dice are rolling well…. Not the PSO’s or the short rolls I have become accustom too at SM. When I get the dice, they are the clear ones and I darn near toss them off the table because they are much lighter than the ones I have grown accustom too. The first few tosses where just me getting a feel for the dice, then my toss came together and the dice stayed connected in the air and landed no more than a few inches apart from each other. There was no wobble in the dice flight and no weird split to the left and right when the dice hit the table. I only shot 3 times but each time I made the point 3 or 4 times with a majority of my hits on my targeted numbers. The Frat boys loved me, I was making them a lot of money! I took a walk around the casino, the Video Poker here is good JOB (9/6) at .25 cents and higher. The slot machines looked older here, though they had the most popular ones that I see at all the casinos as well. Seemed to me that the players where happier than at SM. They have a large RV park connected to the casino where it appeared to me that well over 100 RV are there, far more than I ever see at SM. CW is a smaller casino that SM, perhaps half the size of SM who they compete with. Billy told me that he is often comp with free hotel and meals there, something that SM never gives him. I noted that it is rare for me to even get any comp for food or much less a room. He said that SM was rather stingy when it comes to comps. It was actually very late, 3am when I decided that I have had enough and headed home. I have never put much clout in the “bias dice” claims that I read on the internet. Mostly because there claims come from people I don’t know, however when it comes from someone who I do know and I have no reason to disbelieve them, this give me reason to ponder the issue. So I investigated this a bit…. This link is about a casino who was caught buying dice from an unauthorized dice vender. The article does not go in to the dice issue, but does elude that there are dice quality and standards that some State Gaming Commissions have that this have to be meet. So this does tell me that there are manufactures then who produce poor quality dice or that some dice are unfairly bias. cleveland/casino/index.ssf/2013/04/horseshoe_casino_cleveland_is.html This link is a collection of postings from people who have noticed changes over the years at the Craps tables… dicesetter/Casino%20Dice%20Surveys/Bias%20Dice.htm Now on to some real controversy… This guy shows you some show you real casino dice that are unbalanced, and grealy biased dailymotion/video/x10b5qr_unbalanced-dice-part-1-bad-dice-in-las-vegas-casinos-must-see dailymotion/video/x10b5qt_unbalanced-dice-part-2-bad-dice-in-las-vegas-casinos-must-see Dice will be manufactured unbalanced. That is a fact, and if a third party is then buying the dice in bulk and stamping them with the casino logo and control numbers, that will further unbalance the dice. It is my opinion that this is not done intentionally but as a result of dice engineering and manufacturing AND third party branding on the dice. It is also my opinion that some dice will be more biased than others, due to the how the die are created and the materials used. This video talks about the manufacturing process and that the dice are unbalanced to varies degrees unintentionally (perhaps unavoidable) due to the design and manufacturing process, the manufactures know this and this is well documented. That the casinos know this too and simply exploit this to their own benefits. If there is no law to prevent them from exploiting this, then why should they not use it to increase the house edge? dailymotion/video/x10b4gy_unbalanced-dice-part-3-steve-forte-s-book-part-1 dailymotion/video/x10b4h5_unbalanced-dice-part-4-steve-forte-s-book-part-2 Some dice are more expensive than others. Clear dice are more expensive, but the least bias, the frosted or the dark ones that you cannot see though are much cheaper but more biased. Face it, what comes from the manufacture is what the Casinos put in to play. You have to be aware of to what degree of bias there is on any particular table you are at by the dice they dish out of the bowl. dailymotion/video/x10b4ha_unbalanced-dice-part-5-follow-up-video-series-steve-fortes-book-part-3 Unbalanced dice have been known about since 1982, well before the Dice control movement, and apparently well documented too. Some states and countries have laws outlawing dice games because of the inherit bias in the dice. Today’s dice use a heavier pip compound to make the pips easier to see, thus the heavier and deeper the pips the more unbalance the die and bias to the 6-1 dailymotion/video/x10b4p3_unbalanced-dice-part-6-follow-up-video-series-robert-spira-s-books Unbalanced dice to a great degree will cause a WOBBLE in your toss and the dice to seem to pull apart in the air to hit the table an scatter in opposite directions. The more unbalanced the die is, meaning the heaver the six is, the more wobble or rotation around the heavier end will occur, or where the center of gravity is for the die, and it is in the corner of the 6,5,4 face. So lets go on to the test of the casinos dice… How to use a dice caliper (you can buy them at a gambling supply store or online at such stores) dailymotion/video/x10b4vb_unbalanced-dice-part-7-follow-up-video-series-steve-fortes-videos dailymotion/video/x10b4vm_unbalanced-dice-part-8-understanding-the-dice-balancing-caliper 100% balanced dice are very difficult to find, if you can even find them. Pai gow dice are balanced an unbiased, how interesting is that. (See below) It is just the way it is with mass manufactured dice and the casinos buying them in large quantities where they want to get as many of them as cheap as the can. The pip compound and size will determine the degree of the bias and some dice are less biased than others depending on the pip compound and the weight of the die body itself. But the fact is that all mass manufactured casino dice with their logo on it will be biased to the six to some degree. How we deal with this and exploit it is our task. To create balanced dice you would have to construct the dice so that the pip area of coverage was equal on all six sides. This would end up with a die that with various sizes of pip for each face. That would be a rather expensive die in my opinion to create and given the large amounts of dice casinos go though it is very unlikely they invest in such dice. Here is an example of balanced dice crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot/2012/08/balanced-dice.html Interesting there is a reference that Colorado casinos use these dice for craps, why is that? If standard American Craps Dice are not bias, then why do these Asian dice exist? Why do the Asian casinos, some US casinos now use these dice over the standard US Dice? Good dice – Fair dice. Clear dice with shallow pips or painted/printed on pips and a lightly printed control number or logo. Not 100% unbalanced but far better than the dark or frosted casino dice. dailymotion/video/x10b4wa_unbalanced-dice-part-10-dice-test-2-good-dice Ok, so if the dice are bad – Play the darkside right? Not so fast…. dailymotion/video/x10b4wk_unbalanced-dice-part-11-follow-up-video-series-why-not-to-play-the-darkside-with-bad-dice there is a story in this video of a DI group, instructors and students, that got whipped out by bad dice during a weekend seminar. Ahigh is a Las Vegas resident and self proclaimed though ‘controversial’ dice expert. He is a known ‘bias dice’ debunker however though his own videos shows bias dice and he was shocked that his own created tools are detecting bias dice. Ahigh has deleted all of his videos that shows any dice bias, this video was captured from a live webcast he put on. It is unknown where Ahigh is on this issue today. dailymotion/video/x105s2l_unbalanced-dice-part-12-the-ahigh-show-part-1-the-epic-revelation dailymotion/video/x10b5a3_unbalanced-dice-part-13-follow-up-video-series-the-ahigh-show-part-2-the-epic-revelation dailymotion/video/x105tmr_unbalanced-dice-part-14-ahigh-show-part-3-the-epic-revelation Casinos don’t spin dice before they put them in play. The just take them out of the manufactures package and only ensure that they are unmarked, the same serial numbers and with their logos before they put them in play. I am quite convinced that casinos know that the dice are biased in to different degrees and have data to back up what dice perform for them the best. Why not then put out the more biased dice on a heavy Friday/Saturday night to rake in from the tourist and weekend players and then put out the less bias dice for the regulars and your weekday crowd. Closing thoughts by the creator of these videos. dailymotion/video/x105nst_unbalanced-dice-part-15-my-closing-thoughts The video creators website crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot/p/biased-dice.html is very controversial and has created a heated division in the dice world as to if the dice are actually biased or not, and if the casinos actually exploit this. The creator of the videos has in my opinion proven his point and backed it up with other authors who have stated that the dice are bias due to the manufacturing process decades ago! He argues that Dice Gurus, those with books and seminars to sell are the loudest naysayers of this theory, however some dice gurus including Frank Scoblete have now come to admit that the dice bias issue is real and a factor when playing at any casino. It is my opinion, and that of the creator of this video, that the State Gamming Commissions are well aware of this, but what can they do? Casinos are well aware of this and are clearly exploiting this bias to their own benefits, and why should they not? As long as the laws allow them to operate in a way that give them more house edge, they will take it. Can a DI beat bias dice? Yes. Bias dice to the 6-1 is the most common…but this can be beat. Chart the tables, especially noting the seven-out as to the frequency of the 6-1, 5-2 or 4-3. If you see a seven out that heavily favors the 6-1 for random throws then you know what degree the dice are unbalanced. If you randomly toss an unbalance dice it will roll in the air around its center of gravity that will be in the corner of the 6,5,4 face. The results gathered below show some interesting data that we can use to defeat bias dice: Green Valley Ranch Casino near Las Vegas seems to be using unbalanced dice based upon roll data collected there in July, 2013: 521 Rolls broken down as follows 2’s = 15 3’s = 33 4’s = 55 5’s = 44 6’s = 60 8’s = 67 9’s = 33 10’s = 41 11’s = 24 12’s = 22 The 7’s broke down like this: 6/1 = 40 5/2 = 20 4/3 = 13 The fact that the 4 and 10 are hit far above the norm is remarkable. I have experienced this at SM where the 4 and 10 are hit far more frequently, even MP pointed out that my own toss hits these more than normal, because the dice there are greatly biased. So with that knowledge how I bet is solved. As for a dice set, the X-6 or S-6 is clearly the one obvious option. Any dice set with the six on the side will just set that die to wobble in the air. If you are to shoot the inside then try this 3-4,2-5 with the 6 and 3 facing you (a 5 and 9 set) 3-4,4-3 with the 6 and 2 up (this is the 6 and 8 set) Hardway with no backspin is what I used for my legionary hour and a half roll at SM. On a CO roll use a YO set The Straight Six (3-4,3-4) is probably going to be your best option for hitting the 4 and 10 or playing the darkside. Furthermore, it would be vitally important to reduce as much roll and spin as possible with the dice, so your throw has to be low, slow and soft so that the dice quickly stop once they hit the back wall, and that they have a very slight back spin (or no spin) in the air (avoid any heavy backspin that will only wobble the dice!). Any rolling of the dice after they hit the back wall will only further position the dice to rotate on their center of gravity and result in a 6-1 seven out. In The Mad Professor’s Crapshooting Bible, there is a really good description of this toss and the mechanics of it. Final thoughts about this entire controversial subject…. 1. Bias Craps dice exist, get over it. 2. No chance of most Gaming Commission will intercede, except in the most egregious cases. It is pointed out that NV State Gaming Commission know that the dice are biased but due to mutual interest (casino profits and tax collection) this issue is simply ignored. Now if the bias was towards the player you bet in a heartbeat that the dice would be fixed to be balanced and unbiased! Other government agencies like the FBI and local state police will only defer this issue to the State Gaming Commission where the issue is again ignored. Indian Casinos are often outside the jurisdiction of the State and have their own Gambling commission where you the player have no rights or voice, nor will your complaints be heard. Some States, casinos and countries use the Asian unbiased dice in craps to satisfy the laws of jurisdiction, so there is president that bias dice do exist. 3. You can spot bias dice by the known types that proven already are to be bias, or chart a table yourself and determine if there is a bias or not. You then decide to play with those dice or move on to the next casino, or just not play Craps anymore. 4. Asians don’t play craps in China with US Dice because they know the dice are biased and gives the casino a much higher edge than is reasonable. They use the Asian Dice that we call Pai gow dice. Asians are far more observant and picky about what edge they will give the house, why cannot we be picky too? 5. Competitive casinos, those in the shadows of the dominate and more highly visible casinos, will offer fair dice (or better to say the least biased dice). Why is this? Because if you go to Mega X casino and lose, then go to small Y casino and win, you are more likely to visit small Y casino on your next visit and bypass Mega X casino entirely. If all dice are believed the same and there is no bias, then why are different types of dice and why is it at one casino you lose your ass and the next with different dice you fare fare better? What is the difference? 6. I guess that the casinos and those who operate them know all too well about the issues with bias Craps dice and dice types (A dice and B Dice), and what effect this has on their operations and profits, and of course the players experience an likelihood to return to that casino. It all depends if the casino wants to keep you as a returning player or if they just don’t care and look at you as someone who was dumb enough to play their unfair biased game. Perhaps the casinos rather you go away, or just play slots, perhaps they just want the dumb newbies who come in doves to see the spectacle of what Las Vegas is and the real gamblers can go elsewhere. 7. If you believe that the casino wants to offer you a fair game, then you need to consider this: bankers have offered all of us very unfair credit and deposit rates (and some of the banksters committed crimes by offering fraudulent investments), Congress passes unfair laws about taxation and mandating that only benefit their corporate donors, and the local city police unfairly target the underclass (blacks, Mexicans, and poor whites) to finance their operations. Why would you ever think that the casinos won’t cheat you if they can? If the other big cheats can away with it, well so then can the casinos. And anyway, who is to stop them? 8. Most casino players are unaware that they are being cheated. 89 to 91% slot return, 6:5 blackjack, degraded Video poker at 97.5% return and bias dice is the norm now, and the players play these games without question. Las Vegas had a record breaking number of visitors in July 2014, and with that came the profits they desperately need. Apparently, they don’t need to offer fair games to attract players when plenty come to play the unfair games they already have. 9. Underground poker rooms are springing up all over the USA. No house rake and no limits. They are tired of the casino BS and their unfair deals. There are plenty of underground blackjack pits as a result to the casinos 6:5 games and other unfair rule issues that Vegas pushes on the players, it is likely that underground craps pits will start to flourish as the casinos continue to further make this game unfair and unwinnable. 10. Asians in the long run may have the final say about craps. As the Asian economies strengthen, Las Vegas will need to attract them. Asians are far more aware of ‘game fairness’ than we Americans are and will snub a game if the edge is too high. 11. Indian casinos will eventually become more competitive as more Indian casinos open up, and as States legalize gambling too. A more completive environment will only educate the player as how they are getting cheated and the casinos will be forced to offer games where the biases and house edge is greatly reduced to have any business at all. Casinos may end up being smaller and less fancy and flashy, but more fair. 12. If you cannot find a casino where the dice are the least unbiased, then don’t play. Perhaps write your casinos asking them to use better dice, or even the Asian dice, or write your lawmakers to define what proper unbiased and fair dice are. 13. If you are to play at a casino that is known to have significantly biased dice or you are tracking and see the bias, then you may not beat the casino that day but can perhaps avoid a serious beat down with the play methods I mentioned. Now I am not joining the “short dice crew” a group of people who have become irrational about this subject and who seek out and accuse the dice gurus publicly of being deceitful and not informing their students of the inherent bias with US Craps Dice. I just think that this issue need to be squally looked at and the dice community need to advocate for changes in the casinos for the Asian dice. However, I also think that we as Advantage players need devise means to overcome the bias to get our advantage back. Comments are welcome.
Posted on: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 16:09:08 +0000
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